Wing Chun in relation to Shaolin

[doc]

I train for my health.

Why do you have to protect so many people?

And no, I avoid fighting. Always have. There are far more intelligent ways of handling acts of aggression.

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

I dont think you understood what I said, or maybe you dont want to, I dont fight more than other people (in general), it is just that sometime we dont have choice, and when everybody know (I dont know how so much people know) that you train in martial art, they like testing us (I still dont know why)...and even I dont know how old you are and I dont want to know it because I know you dont want me to know, but at my age fighting is more frequent, not because of the way we think but only because we go in different places

[dogchow108]

Im not saying i pick fights to test out my training...its just that if i had the philosophy of never fight no matter what then i would just as well have started doing jumnastics, wushu, stayed in hockey or other things for physical and spiritual development. hell i might have also just stuck with just drawing. i think that subliminally a lot of people practice martial arts rather than other things is because the thought of fighting interests them somehow. but thats just one way of explaining one person's veiw- i really wasnt taking sides.

[dogchow108]

by the way has anyone here ever heard of the song "fight test" by the Flaming Lips? i think it could supplement this sibject we're on pretty nicely.

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

I never heard it, I ll download it when I ll have time

[zachsan]

two things:

1. 'fight test' is an incredible song, 'yoshimi battles the pink robots' is an incredible album, and the flaming lips just ****ing rock.

2. i would venture to say that it is absolutely correct that most people who take up martial arts at least subliminally are thinking about the potential scenario that they are going to find themselves in situations to which there is simply no alternative but physical violence. i also believe that this is tragic, as it completely misses the point of traditional martial arts.

the reason i say this is that there are almost no real life situations to which there is no alternative but physical violence. if you walk down a street on your way to work every day, and get mugged half the time, a very simple logical step would be to stop walking down the street.

so, if you train in martial arts, your mind constantly fixated upon that one imaginary time when you will have to defend life, family or honor against hordes of knife-wielding thugs, you're missing the point. not only will this probably never happen, but you'd probably be able to easily avoid such a situation to begin with if it ever was a real possibility, and to become fixated upon it suggests at the very best an unhealthy fantasy life.

the reason i practice martial arts instead of yoga or gymnastics is that they simply fascinate me more. yes, there are very real and tangible self-defense applications, and i do my best to understand these, but the ultimate lesson of martial arts is to defeat oneself. it's tragic when a martial art forgets its martial roots and becomes simply a form of exercise; but this is mainly sad because, when this happens, the lessons that are to be learned through the martial aspects of the art are lost. not because its proponents can no longer kick ass.

- zach

[joehaz100]

dose any one think bruce lee would be able to beat a tai chi grandmaster? who would win

[doc]

I don't think Bruce Lee would do all that well against a tai ji grandmaster.

He's dead.

[joehaz100]

well you know if he was alive and do you think jetli really knows how to tai chi as well as he did on the tai chi master ?

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by joehaz100
well you know if he was alive and do you think jetli really knows how to tai chi as well as he did on the tai chi master ?

for now im under the impression that jet li is just a pretty boy tool of the communist regime in china.


anyway, zachsan-

think about it this way. you can't really be too true to shaolin tradition if you just look at the premature, stagnant embryonic stages of what became shaolin. the whole point, especially from a chan perspective (of course, this is just how i, dogchow understand it) is to take something and develop it into something better. it has no beginning or end, which i would attribute to why it is really kinda difficult to say exactly when "shaolin martial arts" actually came about.


where am i getting- whatever it was meant for, shaolin gong fu became a martial art (note, that gong fu does not necesarily denote martial art for my purposes, but rather just the abstract idea that you get better at what you work at). the monks were, as i have gathered, eventually hired, used, whatever, to train soldiers. they were also at some point asked to do rescue operations for government officials (which traditionally is the reason that the shaolin are allowed to drink alcohol and eat meat and, if im not mistaked they got a nice chunk of land that way). i would venture to say, from looking at some of the stuff that is called shaolin "weaponry" that it wouldnt be too hard to provide evidence of monks who trained militias. i mean look at some of the weapons- axes, hoes, spades- really, stuff a peasant would have. actually, if i recall there is at least some info precisely about this.

now, maybe some monks left the temple because they didnt want their gong fu to turn into MA, but on the whole, it was going in a very clear direction. i guess the debatable topic is whether or not this compromizes the shaolin temple's buddhist integrity. but really i think you cant just look at the very fetal point of shaolin gong fu and say what it was without looking at what the actual shaolint emple eventually turned it into.


however, if you keep tracing that line, you can say it has largely tuned into a sport, or a means of self expression.


i mainly pursue martial arts as a means of self expression, and i like the philosophy behind trainig and stuff like that. i dont really spar, but i DO train drills because i want to keep with the tradition that martial arts are for fighting.


i think this kind of applies to shaolin or any real martial practice- people developed it that way for one reason or another- i think probably for a good reason that had to do with little choice on their part.

[dogchow108]

wow- i think i just totally responded to the wrong thread-...

[Vasuva]

In response to some people questioning Jet Li's abilities, I heard a little anecdote from one of my Gong Fu teachers. Word has it that Jet Li is quite the perfection when it comes to Wushu (and might very well know Tai Chi to the maxage), but that's it. I don't know about everyone, but my Shaolin and Wudang teachers say that Jet Li is good but would get owned had the Cradle 2 The Grave scenario occured.
Anyway, that's kinda off topic to the Tai Chi subject.....so I'll be going now.

[Vasuva]

I was wondering about the Bruce Lee vs. Tai Chi master scenario. Assuming they were ambiguously placed in a vacuum where they had to fight.....mind control? Doesn't Tai Chi have a lot of Qi Gong methods of neutralizing attacks? Given that maybe Bruce Lee would be faster.....and given that maybe the Tai Chi master would possess more knowledge of pressure points/joints....the fight would be close I guess.

[joehaz100]

ok well if the tai chi master hit bruce in the stomic couldent he cause intrenall bleeding

[zachsan]

dogchow:

yeah you did totally respond to the wrong thread. i'm responding to it on the other thread.

anyway, here's one for the judges: in a fight between He-Man and The Hulk, who would win? i think He-Man would totally kick ass.