Have you ever used your kung fu in a real fight? Did it work? Please share

[master splinter]

speaking of butterbean going up against a little guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2SqIkt0E7o

[LeiYunFat]

Baiwanxi, Dao made that point conditional. If the smaller trained fighter goes against a larger trained fighter, the smaller will have to resort to more brutality.

Big "if", when it comes to regulated and sanctioned fights, where if someone like Shi Yan Ming wanted to compete, he could...in his weight class.

[zachsan]

Certainly if the smaller fighter is willing to escalate a fight to a level that the larger fighter isn't, he'll have an advantage. This holds true for going after the bigger guy's throat, eyes, etc., or for using a weapon of some kind (which factor is conspicuously absent from your list DDJ).

But concerning our hierarchy, this advantage would more accurately be filed under "surprise" than "skill". It only gives you an advantage if the other party isn't expecting it. If the bigger guy is prepared and willing to be just as brutal, then your advantage is canceled out. And let's be honest, nobody really needs to take a martial arts class to know where to hit a guy so he'll remember it.

Of course, one could argue that training will increase your chances of landing the first hit in one of those spots. But does it increase those chances more than, say, having a longer range, or greater strength? In a sense the bigger guy would still have more of a margin for error, because even if he misses your vitals, he could cause significant damage with anything at all that connects.

Of course we're completely in the theoretical right now and this just ties back to my main point. There just isn't much evidence for the efficacy of traditional styles, and while there are any number of perfectly plausible explanations for this fact on the part of traditional stylists, the fact remains.

Compare this to modern MMA, in which that evidence is offered in a very controlled and relatively tame environment, but at least it's there. Yet MMA has barely achieved a fraction of the popularity of TMA worldwide. For better or worse, the mystique behind traditional martial arts is self-perpetuating.

[daodejing]

Totally true. In this day and age there is very little empirical evidence for the fighting efficacy of most traditional styles. While some styles have demonstrated an inablity to turn out trained fighters relatively quickly (BJJ, muay thai) its still pretty damned rare (but not unheard of) to see a baguazhang exponent win a mma tourney.

They say Bruce Lee came up with jeet kune do after trying to use wing chun against a karateka and a boxer and losing both bouts.

[master-lu]

I would like to thank you zachsan you really understood what I was trying to do and raised a number of interesting issues, very good i don't even know where to start.
Would also like to thank flow and daodejing for your serious and interesting contributions. To bad there were not more gong fu people like you guys we could be developing some real good stuff and not just be kidding. Thank you for sharing I'll be back with some comments on your stuff next time.

[master splinter]

[quote=zachsan]Certainly if the smaller fighter is willing to escalate a fight to a level that the larger fighter isn't, he'll have an advantage. This holds true for going after the bigger guy's throat, eyes, etc., or for using a weapon of some kind (which factor is conspicuously absent from your list DDJ).

But concerning our hierarchy, this advantage would more accurately be filed under "surprise" than "skill". It only gives you an advantage if the other party isn't expecting it. If the bigger guy is prepared and willing to be just as brutal, then your advantage is canceled out""


Not to totally disagree, but from my experience, if you can combine both surprise and skill, then you can overcome a stronger, more powerful opponent. skill, is one of the ONLY things that will help you against a stronger bigger guy.

[onefocus]

Tx for trying to bring it back to reality zachshan.

although i must say, it wasn't a question as much as it was a point in fact.

when these discussions happen on forums like this, there are too many variables that almost always allow for misunderstanding and\or miseducation.

with that being said, i'll try to be brief.

someone who has been trained for sport, only has one goal =win.-(under the governing associations sanctions).

someone who has been trained for self-defence has a goal of defending themselves if it should become necessary.

a fight for a pro is usually in a ring (or some reasonable facsimily thereof).

a fight for a non pro fighter, could happen anywhere ie a racetrack, policestation, car, ect,ect,ect,.

the first thing you have to do is be aware of your situation. we can presuppose all of the possible scenarios that could happen. but the reality is you have to focus on what is happening. try to stay 100% in the moment.

i think a skilled self defence student has the element of surprise on their side because if they study their art, the don't carry themselves as fighters and seem pretty harmless.
you know, like poison ivy. so unless a person knew what to look for, they might miss the mark.

also, the training for a self defence student is a little different. and sport rulings don't apply. so with proper action what would be an arm bar in mma, might be an arm break on the street. most cases, the perp didn't see it comming, and the fight is over.

so unless the guy comes back with a vengence, or the law gets involved you win.

admittedly some people have a knack for fighting. but most of the best trained at it.

boxers are taught how to knock people out, that's why size doesn't really matter with skilled fighters but again, you have to be aware of what is happening at the moment. the best defence at the time might be to run. there is a well known martial artist that was recently shot to death because his body was one place and his mind in another.

life aint fair jesus killer.

[LeiYunFat]

Yet MMA has barely achieved a fraction of the popularity of TMA worldwide. For better or worse, the mystique behind traditional martial arts is self-perpetuating.

Did you mean non-competitive MA? MT, Judo, JJ, fall under the category of TMA, yet they are competition-hardened along with the MMA style.

I'm not trying to argue semantics, there is a difference and I think it's more suited to what I interpret you are saying.

Hahahha, Onefocus, I haven't heard the Jesus Killer thing is a while...

[onefocus]

let's talk about tradition for a moment.

no matter what art you study, you'll find tradition. jj,bjj,tkd,mma...

tradition is not only where you are from, but where you are going.

it is what you are taught, how you are taught, and what and how you teach. not just some old forms\katas.

lessons passed on to you, may not be passed to others in your circle for whatever reasons. respect it for the gift it is to you.

some lessons are passed along to everyone at the same time, yet many learn to use what works for them. remember, we can't all do the same things.

what you learn is your tradition. pass it on to those responsable enough to handle it.

the exercises that you are taught for conditioning strentgh and skill, and the ways to use them in a fight are our traditions. everyone is not taught the same way, nor does everyone learn the same way.

honor your traditions, they may save your life.

peace onefocus

[zachsan]

LOL, it is nice to be called by my true name again.

Anyway LYF I would include those styles with traditional martial arts. (Although it's relevant to note Judo is from the last century and traditional jiujutsu didn't include competition... but they've got that traditional "mystique".) And it's true that competition is included as a way of learning those styles, but my main point remains in that it's not too often you see them tested against other styles. Each one (and we may as well throw Western boxing and kickboxing into this mix) has competition within the style, but specific rules with the desired effect of forcing the competitors to use techniques from that style to win the bout.

Of course there are rules in MMA tournaments as well, but not as many, and they exist less to encourage a particular brand of fighting, and more to discourage lawsuits.

[daodejing]

For the record, i accidently wrote "inablity" and not "ability" in the last post i left on this board.

As for the whole tae kwon do karate judo jiu jitsu competition scene, I'm going to have to say that I did not consider american taekwon do, american karate, judo, or brazilian jiu jitsu to be "traditional martial arts" namely because none of those styles in their current iterations are much more than 100 years old

(i think jigoro kano founded judo in 1892, so in that case, 115 years, as opposed to say xingyiquan or baguazhang which have documented histories going back over 400 years each)

Sure we could discuss till the cow's come home what the varying individual definitions of "traditional" are, but that'd be silly.

As far as I know, martial arts crossing into the arena of large sports style tournaments is a relatively new development, and the styles which have excelled in this arena are often relatively new styles. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt gracie jiujitsu less than 150 years old?

Sure we can always say, "but its based on much older traditional arts". So is everything. Point is, i dont know of a style thats older than 250 years which has kept its traditions from earlier times yet also excels in modern sporting mixed martial arts competition. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[zachsan]

We're in agreement, DDJ, but you are forgetting one important style, that is, Puff-Daddy-Entourage-Gong.

Of course I wouldn't really call those styles traditional either. I was just lumping them in with traditional styles, for the sake of argument, because they share the same, uh, memetic reproduction type? That is, they continue to achieve popularity not based on proving their effectiveness against other styles in open tournaments, but by some other means (which I'm arbitrarily calling "mystique"). And lest someone get confused, I wasn't including BJJ in that list, which obviously has taken the opposite route.

[daodejing]

Puff-Daddy-Entourage-Gong is a traditional art, which in spite of being spurned as being unsportsmanlike, has proven great combat effectiveness. Many a chinese emperor has effectively used Puff-Daddy-Entourage-Gong to ward off assailants and creditors alike.

It is surpassed only in spiritual potency by Sleeping-in-hammock-holding-beer-in-left-hand-without-spilling-gong.

Truly, these are styles we could all benefit from studying.

[LeiYunFat]

Hahahaha

I just cheat and stick my finger in the bottle top.

Of course, this cuts off the qi flow to the finger and is potentially dangerous in the long run, but hey, ten fingers, ten beers. I'm a practical guy.

[baiwanxi]

You're not even legal to drink, you Shystee bastard ! I aplaud you for already stumbling across such refined concepts such as the finger in the bottle technique !!

Horray Horray for Alcoholism !!!