Lohan forms, help !

[arhat]

then where do lohan shi ba sho, lao lohan, lohan duan da, lohan xuejiao, fit into the picture?

It would suck if this has left the temple, and makes it even more important to support those who left.

[doc]

OK, I need to research this some more. Quite the interesting issue.

The two main Lohan forms, or shall I say, forms that are really considered to be sacred and traditional "Lohan" forms, are Xiao Lohan, and Yi Lu Da Lohan (Er Lu Da Lohan, the second half of Da Lohan, is also in this category, but few monks know it). There are other "Lohan" forms that are taught at the temple, but, for some reason, are not placed in the same "respected Lohan" category as Xiao Lohan and Da Lohan. Confused? Yea, me too.

Lohan Shi Ba So is a "Lohan" form, but, I'm not sure of how long it has been around. Da Lohan and Xiao Lohan have been taught for a thousand years or so, these others, probably not. The reason why I say this, is that Lohan Shi Ba So is considered to be a basic beginner's form, one which is taught so that gong fu practitioners can learn some of the moves that are present in the larger, more complicated, Xiao and Da Lohan. Confused? Yea, me too. Lohan Shi Ba So is a small form that has some of the moves of the two larger Lohan forms in them; consider it "preparatory" work.

Lohan Duan Da, Basically the same concept. I've seen Lohan Duan Da, and again, it's a short form that is comprised of some of the more important Xiao Lohan and Da Lohan movements. Duan Da, as Shi Ba So, are taught to the wushu students. I've seen both; both are fast moving forms that younger students like to learn. Whether they're a more recent wushu formulation, or an adulteration of some other real Lohan traditional form, I really don't know. I need more time for this.

Lao Lohan, or "Old Lohan", I don't know yet. I'm looking into it. I've been told that this is yet another one of those preparatory forms, created out of Xiao and Da Lohan, but, my source is not sure.

Oh, Lohan Shui Jiao is not a form. It's a move, the move that is found in Da Lohan. It means "Lohan sleeping"; it is the move where one gets on the floor in a cross legged position, with one fist on one foot, and one elbow on the other foot. In Da Lohan, and some of these basic prep forms, one leaps up from Lohan Shui Jiao into a fighting stance, usually ma bu. If someone has created a form around this maneuver, then, well, I guess it just exemplifies the current movement of losing the traditional aspect of gong fu.

There's another form that I just researched, called "Lohan Zu He Chuan", or, more commonly, Zu He Chuan. The interesting thing about this, is that, I'm not really sure it's a "Lohan" form, certified or whatnot, lol, but, some of the younger gang here calls it a Lohan form. Zu He Chuan is also another one of those basic preparatory forms, that comprise some of the more important elements of Da Lohan and Xiao Lohan. It also has elements of three other forms, Gui Ding Chuan, Chang Chuan, and one other that I don't know of. Now, as a preparatory form, to teach and prepare students for the more traditional Xiao and Da Lohans, it has some components of both, but is nowhere near the length or complexity of the two larger ones. Also of interest, I noticed in these preparatory forms, that there are components of Yi Lu Da Lohan, but not of Er Lu Da Lohan (the second half). One might suggest from this observation, that some of these prep forms were created recently, to prepare students for the more commonly taught traditional forms of Xiao Lohan and Yi Lu Da Lohan. But, I'm really not sure. It's all a bit confusing. I got the impression that the students call Zu He Chuan a Lohan form, predominantly because it has some Lohan substance in it, and not because it is an old traditional form. But, I might be wrong.

So, I went to the master. Shi De Qian. Haven't seen him in a year, it was nice to run into him again. We have lots to talk about, but, it's going to have to happen tomorrow. Didn't have enough time to have a long discussion with him this afternoon. But, basically, according to DeQian (who wrote god knows how many books on traditional Shaolin), there are about fifteen Lohan forms that he knows of. According to him, Xiao Lohan and Da Lohan are the two biggies. The others, are rarely taught, and are not known by many monks, if any of these days, at all. This comment makes one wonder about how "traditional" Lohan Duan Da, Lohan Shi Ba Sho, and Lohan Zu He Chuan really are. I don't know. But I will continue to look into this. It's getting interesting.

[arhat]

curses...

just lost another post. It must be a timing out thing.

So I will repost this but brief-

Doc- wouldn't you say it would make sense for things to go the other way- in other words, in Lohan Chuan, we are told the Shi Ba Sho kicked it all off- the 18 hands of the Lohan- then each of these 18 hands were made into forms- so moves repeat across forms from basic to more complex.

I had a whole thing written out for Duan Da from my notes, which I remembered Sleeping Lohan as a form but it's a movement within Duan Da.

I think there are also some weapons in Lohan Chuan- definitely at least one staff form.

Looking forward to hearing De Qian's further info.

[Hei Hu]

For what it's worth, I believe the Lohan Shi Ba Shau is an extremely old and very traditional form. I was taught it from a master from the shaolin temple (he was the cook in Songshan Shaolin temple for 25 years! Trust me, he knows the old stuff! ). When I told YanZhang I wanted to learn the real traditional stuff, that who he sent me to train with. He now runs the kitchen at YanZhang's school. He knowsa hell of a lot of the traditional forms (about 80), especially the Lohans, which are his specialty. He told me there are very many old traditional Lohan forms. The Lohan Shi Ba Shau I learned was actually fairly long, and fairly complicated, with 14 kicks (mostly Er Qi Jiau) in the version I learned. There are several 2 finger eye jabs in it, as well as a little monkey style.
I saw the beginner foreign students at Secular disciples being taught what they were told was Lohan Shi Ba Shau, and it had absolutely NOTHING in common with the version I learned. This version was along the lines of Lian He Quan, and it was extremely short and basic. It sounds llike this is the version Doc is talking about.

[doc]

I'm going to have to keep looking into this. It's getting a little confusing.

The younger monks just have no idea. The older monks, such as the De generation, seem to have some idea as to the Lohan things, but, they generally feel that the Xiao and Da Lohans are the main thing. De Qian seemed to be the most knowledgeable; I'm going to work with him tomorrow. (Just had a really busy day today).

[doc]

OK, spoke at length with Shi De Qian and Shi De Cheng about this. Got a few things straightened out.

There are about fifteen traditional Lohan forms in Shaolin. Problem is, nobody knows them all.

Of the fifteen or so, five seem to be the most well known, even though, of these five, few actually know all of them in their entirety.

They are the following:

Lohan Duan Da
Lohan Shi Ba So
Xiao Lohan
Da Lohan (Yi Lu)
Da Lohan (Er Lu)

Lao Lohan is one of the fifteen or so, but it is not commonly known anymore.

I talked about Lohan Duan Da before.

Lohan Shi Ba So is "one" form made up of many levels, and is generally taught as "one level"; people who think that they've learned Lohan Shi Ba So generally only learn the first level of the entire thing. It actually has eighteen different levels, connected in some sort of way that I don't know. Kind of like the two levels of Da Lohan. Lohan Shi Ba So is not really known, in its entirety, by anyone anymore. And to make matters more confusing, most students get some sort of variation of the first level, depending upon who's teaching it. With today's wushu climate, alterations of it are common. Few people know a few of the eighteen levels, Shi De Cheng knows only a few of them, in their original traditional manner. Shi De Qian also knows only a few levels. The Xing and later generations, if they learn the form at all, generally only learn the first level. You might say that Lohan Shi Ba So, along with Lao Lohan and Er Lu Da Lohan, is falling into the dust heap of traditional history.

[arhat]

interesting...

Well I've seen a few lohan forms at USA Shaolin, but haven't learned any- I know we have an old lohan, lohan duan da, and also one called lohan fist...

the shi ba sho as I understand we have it is 18 moves which are then broken down to 18 forms based around those moves. then there is another subdivision of those 18 into subsets. He makes a big deal of Shi Ba Sho in our Ch'an classes.

I don't know if he knows those subsets because he is somewhat evasive about talking over things you're not supposed to know yet, usually resulting in a 'More Chi Train Harder' statement...but I hope to find out.

[Hei Hu]

Arhat,

I just counted the number of moves in my Lohan Shi Ba Sho, and there are around 38 moves, which include 15 kicks in the form. For whatever its worth..... I'm originally from New York city, and may come back to NYC for a few weeks, next week. I'm gonna check out Yan Ming and Guolins schools to compare the styles, as I will be living back and forth between London and NYC next year, and will train in both cities. I've been training with Yanzi here for a year and a half and trained full time for 6 months with Yan Ming's brother Shi YanZhang, at his school in China. If I were to train at USA shaolin temple, would I have to start in the beginner level classes, or could I train with the more advanced class.

What forms would your Shifu have me work on if I started training there? ie. What are the first forms you practice in class. I assume you guys start with Wu Bu Quan and Xiao Hong Quan, but is there a specific order of forms that you are taught there after that, and if so what is that order. I'm curious if the forms I know are compatible with what you guys practice. Some of the fist forms I've learned are Xiao Hong Quan, Lohan Duan Da, Lohan Shi Ba Sho, Hei Hu Quan (black tiger), and Ying (eagle) Quan. Do you guys practice any of these at USA Shaolin temple? Thanx.

[arhat]

Originally posted by Hei Hu
Arhat,

I just counted the number of moves in my Lohan Shi Ba Sho, and there are around 38 moves, which include 15 kicks in the form. For whatever its worth..... I'm originally from New York city, and may come back to NYC for a few weeks, next week. I'm gonna check out Yan Ming and Guolins schools to compare the styles, as I will be living back and forth between London and NYC next year, and will train in both cities. I've been training with Yanzi here for a year and a half and trained full time for 6 months with Yan Ming's brother Shi YanZhang, at his school in China. If I were to train at USA shaolin temple, would I have to start in the beginner level classes, or could I train with the more advanced class.

Damned if I know, I've never seen the Shi Ba Xo that I could identify it anyway...he just talks about it reverentially in Ch'an class...I just know what I was told was that it was 18 'moves' whatever that means, and that from these 18 forms were made around the original moves, and then a further division of 3 subsets per form.

As far as where you would start, he would probably put you in beginners class to see where you fit. If you know all the level one basics and it was obvious you belong in level 2 you would probably train in that picking up level 2 basics as you go- but really you are supposed to do both level one and level two classes when you make it to level 2 so in a way it doesn't matter. Thing is, at Yan Ming's temple, all the classes are 'beginner' classes. He really places a heavy emphasis on basics. 2 hrs plus, every class. After about 1.25-1.5 hrs we start forms, which are also basically basics in level one- level two sees lohanchuan, lohan duan da, xiao and dao hong chuans, tong bei quan, changquan (there's a member of the Egyptian wushu team who does the wushu version of this), Liuhequan, lohan gun, fengmogun, things like that. Xiao and Dao and Tong bei Quan are the progression and what you start with. I haven't even learned Xiao Hong Chuan yet because I am learning level two basics, but I did learn Ying Zhao Quan- Eagle. The way it works, the first part of class is all basics, in a group and in lines. Then we break to stretch, then forms, which are done 2 at a time- you do the forms you know, then if you are deemed ready, you learn the next- it depends.

In level one, the first two forms are Chuji Quantao, which is a basic stance building form, and then Yi Lu Quan, another basic stance form, and then there is a third form in level one called Er Lu Quan, which is an old form I've seen done a few different ways- it's even in one of the Jet Li flicks in a variation. Xiao Hong Chuan used to be in level one, but got pushed back to level two. I think a gong fu brother of yours is Lipster. He came for a visit and got to see a part of level one class so you should definitely check with him. Level two also sees a lot more combat oriented movements, endless punching and kicking drills, pad work, then strength building exercises, like two hundred 2 inch drop hand stand pushups as fast as you can, then ten all the way down, wheel barrows across the length of the floor- that kind of stuff. Last night he was talking about punching mechanics and how nobody was understanding them, he goes, "any position- deadly" - he moved his fist about four inches and it sounds like a kung fu movie dub. It's sick, and he pushes you hard to get like that.

I never actually went to see Guolin. His classes are shorter, and from some emails we exchanged and the way some things fell out- well, it just wasn't for me. There is also Li Peng, and one of Guolin's disciples moved in right around the corner from us, so you can easily checkthem out too. Oh yeah, another of Guolin's former disciples also opened up right next to us too, Heng Xin...

I always thought that was curious.

[Hei Hu]

Thanks for the info. I'll definately come in and check out USA Shaolin temple. I know Guolin's new disciple, as I trained with him in China. Maybe he wants to tap into NYC market, who knows? I was looking for Zhang Li Peng's website, as I wanted to check him out in Brooklyn also, but couldn't find any info. I do know he's extremely talented. He's another option. Guolin, Yanzi and YanZhang are extremely close. The problem I have with Guolin's school is it's a bit of a trip from NYC out to queens. Anyone know where to find info about Li Peng's school in Brooklyn on the net? Isn't Heng xin Guolin's chief instructor?

[arhat]

I don't have Peng's website handy but it should be easy enough to find on google.

As far as I know, Heng Xin was brought or sent over to help teach and once he got here he decided he would leave Guolin and teach on his own. So he went around the corner from us.

Now Shi Yan Chang, the original Shaolin monk who came to NYC many many years ago, is back after his, umm...well he wasn't feeling well in China so he is now in Queens at Guolin's but I have no idea if he is teaching.

[Hei Hu]

Thanx Arhat,

I spoke to YanZhang yesterday (the guys from China arte still here for another month), and he told me Guolin is going to spend some time at YanZhang's school in China as of Sept. 14th, so I'm gonna try and check him out before he goes. It would be interseting if Yan Chang is teaching at Guolin's school. He was more into the Ch'an aspect, as opposed to the Gong Fu aspect though wasn't he?. Do you know anything about his Gong Fu skills? I don't know much about him, but it would be interesting, if he were teaching gong fu. I'll let you know. Found Li Peng's website, and I'm gonna check him out, as well as USA Shaolin temple, and a few others. I'm just curious to see who's teaching what. Li Peng says he teachess "Eagle Boxing". I know he specialized in Eagle, but not sure if he teaching it as the complete boxing style (Chi Na and the applications) or if he's just teaching a form. We'll soon see. Maybe I'll bump into you when I come visit Yan Ming. Any particular days/time that you train?

[Lipster]

Hei, what are the performers gonna do for another month here? Any particular reason why they're staying?

[arhat]

Well Hei, I really doubt that Yan Chang is teaching. From what I heard from someone who went to check him out when he was teaching right before the shit storm, he didn't seem too into stuff, and he was having trouble with his disciples and some of their antics and accusations that they were making, so from what I know he folded up shop and went back to China for a time, where he was under some heavy duress. He has a very interesting story and I don't think he got a fair shake out of things. He was the first monk to be sent here to the US, I think by Xing Zhen. But for some reason I am not aware of he didn't teach. He eventually became abbot of a temple, then after some time who shows up at his door but Yan Ming then Guolin. Anyway, some people who were cracked in their heads became his disciples and caused a lot of trouble for him with all these hair brained stories they were spewing. Stuff like Guolin and Yan Ming were not real monks, that there were witnesses that saw them taking their vows in an upstate temple (Guolin became Yan Chang's disciple so maybe that is what they were talking about) anyway I don't think things were comfortable for him when he got back to China at all because he possessed some kind of financial capacity in HK and he suffered from stress from someone he thought was a close ally but turned out not to be and so he has come back, I guess to spend his days here helping Guolin. I really don't know the conditions of the arrangement that allowed that to happen, I just know that he called up Yan Ming when he got back into town and they had a long talk. But I guess it would be cool if he was teaching. The little I saw of his stuff, from a video he seemed injured or something. But maybe that's just how he does his gong fu. Yong Ting has some vids up too that I thought were in slow mo or something so maybe that is just how they do it, some go slow some fast with what seems to me more power. De Cheng moves quick, Guolin seemed slower and higher, not Steve DeMasco high, to me by comparison, and Yong Ting, from the vids...well one of his students threatened Yan Ming about some bullshit when Yan Ming went back to Shaolin the first time and the abbot went for him and thinking about that brought a chuckle. De Yang is pretty unbelievable and Yan Ming is pretty much the same. Never saw any decent stuff on Li Peng, but Yan Ming has spoken highly of him.

I guess Guolin will be returning to China with his master after their USSD appearances in Cali.

I have heard nothing but good things about Li Peng martially, but haven't heard if he is teaching Ch'an. Guolin's students all seem to really like him and I have heard good things about them too.

At Yan Ming's there's pretty much class every day and night, I usually get there for the night classes- level one is T/TH/Sat day/Sun Day and level two is Mon/Wed/Friday. Level one also has day classes M/W/F but I usually can't make those. I try and mix it up, so try to do M-T-W-S/S or something like that.

Just shoot me a PM or better yet get my private email from Lipster and let me know when you are coming. Bring a letter of intro- it will go far.

[Hei Hu]

Lipster,

Not quite sure why they're staying so long. Someone mentioned to me that Yanzi is trying to put together one last large performance in a theatre somewhere in London, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. There are several performances at Shaolin Temple Uk this weekend, and I'll ask the guys then. You probably knew that anyway.