Shaolin Kung Fu - really fighting?

[RJW]

Avoid rather than check. Check rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. For all life is precious & none can be replaced. Monks don't go out of their way to kill any more than police try to gun down law brakers.


wooden dummy: Ming Zhen Shakya is an American woman (lives in Las Vegas, actually). She was the1st foreigner to be made a Buddhist priest in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution. She is from the 6th patriarch Hui Neng of Baolin Temple, Guangdong. The book "Seventh World of Chan Buddhism" was written as a way to teach Buddhism to recovering drug addicts & alcoholics. A very nice lady.

[Bungle]

Ok, thanks for that guys. I learn some interesting things or at least saw the subject from some new angles. I have gotten the feeling that for the majority of us, we all take something slightly different from buddhism. We read different books and we all interpret the same book differently due to our conditioning. I have the feeling that when we're further along our path, our views will all merge.

It is hard to keep all the ideas you learn about in your head at once. I think it is hard for me because i understand the ideas in buddhism intellectually and not yet intuatively. So when i focus on one part of buddhism, i forget about the rest. I think some of you guys were doing that too.

Arhat, i liked that reply. It makes sense. It seems that the history of martial arts and shaolin is one damn complicated subject. I liked what you said about combat. I would love to know the evolution of the shaolin exercises into exercises which contained patterns of hand to hand combat. I guess we all would. That's the bit that really interests me.

Even before, i never had a real big problem with training in kung fu or using it for self defense because in those situations it was the contents of your mind that counts. I wanted to understand the mind that created kung fu in the first place. I think we could speculate all day as to how it came about. Do you reckon it's worth discussing to see if we could agree upon a theory?

Anyone read about the boxer rebellion btw? I picked up a history book on the subject in a book shop the other day. I read about 10 pages in all. I read the authors description of the two main groups of chinese boxers involved. One called the big sword or something. It was really interesting. The author described the boxers of carrying out ritual dances, based on folk dance, containing movements with combat application. They swallowed charms to protect themselves and acted like the characters from the monkey king. Pigsy, sandy and monkey(i love that tv series). They invited spirits to enter their bodies (spirit of monkey) so that they could fight with the power of the supernatural on their side. It all sounded very superstitious and embedded in local culture and religion.

Think the folks in china might of taken some of these traditions with them to the temple?

Again, thanks a lot guys.

[Bungle]

oh yeah and Uwe, thanks - i'll take a look at the entire document.

[dave]

shen da/san da (not to be confused with the full contact san da) is a bit weird

dave

[Bungle]

I think this discussion has pretty much ended. I thought i'd test the old people at wahnam too and see what they have to say. So pop over there if your interested. It might seem like i'm re-hashing this discussion but i'd like to see new perspectives on the subject. I can also see how i didn't direct this discussion very well. Thanks

[Maestro]

just so you know

almost all of us who posted here about buddhism/chan/shaolin whatever.. are basically in agreement

except for you..who seem to negate what we were trying to say..which was simply you have more to understand, its not that we understand it differently or how we came upon our understanding..whatever that is anyway

its the level of understanding your lacking, and its the level of humility imho you seem to be lacking aswell

now..that should spice things up in this thread..

[Bungle]

actually. I've been thinking about it today and i realised i don't actually care. I don't practice any martial arts anymore and i don't need to. Maybe one day i'll train in shaolin if it ever takes my interest. It started as an interesting question but i realised i was obsessing slightly and for no reason what so ever. It really does not effect me.

Did that spice it up enough Maestro?

[doc]

I think I'm going to go out and buy the damn book today. Now I'm curious.

And no, I don't think you spiced it up enough for Maestro's tastes. But, Bungle, if you're heading over to the Wahnam forum, I hear that they have a very educational discussion proceeding on "pot belly's".

[Maestro]

what gets me upset

is bungle acts as if he understands buddhism but he doesnt even know enough to understand that you cant classify buddhism, you cant make open ended statements about buddhism, and you cant just neglect other peoples views because you dont understand what they are saying..which he did

all arhat and the rest were saying is..give it time sooner or later youll understand..and hes like..oh no i understand alright..just i understand differently cause i read this book!

and the book..its on my wishlist i think..i got like 200 books on my wishlist ..so i dunno

i doubt its that good..but if it gave bungle enough nerve to come here and talk about buddhism like hes got it all down...budda says this..buddha says that..then maybe its got something useful in it

otherwise though..i think what we are seeing from bungle is a side effect of readers of mr barefoots book

now..we shall see the rippling effects


bawhawhahwhwhahahhaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Bungle]

If you read it, start a thread and we can discuss it. I think i'll read mine again soon. I got so much stuff to read! Do you find you get all these books and you know you should re-read em but you never get around to it? I think it's all about free e-books at the moment though. www.buddhanet.net has to be the ultimate source for free e-books on buddhism, chan to theravada, all there.

[Bungle]

A friend just emailed me with these links. Looks like all the questions have been answered. FOOKING HELL, MORE TO READ!! aghh...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=22164&perpage=15&highlight=buddhism%20shaolin&pagenumber=1

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20722&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21795&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20750&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20675&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=18671&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=19247&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16471&highlight=buddhism+shaolin

that's is me out of this debate, these guys have knowledge and i have a lot to learn. Good enough for ya Maestro?

[Elrond]

Couldn't it be considered honorable for a Monk to defend himself at the cost of some Karma if he saves the aggressor from gaining even more bad karma?

If a bandit is going to kill 10 villagers and a monk kills the bandit instead maybe he did the bandit a favor. This seems to me to be the kind of logic a monk might use as this is precisly allong the 8 fold path as I understand it.

Hell using this logic the monk doesn't gain any bad Karma, maybe sheds a wee bit.

It is all about how your interpret the teachings. If you want to know the original intention you are going to have to ask Sidhartha.

[I Attack Bears]

Very interesting, I agree about the ending of bad karma through the death of one man and that is why the monks are allowed to kill.

Very logical

[Maestro]

perceptions

as i understand it karma's whole philosophy is based on perception..

everything that has to do with an individual originates in his mind, thus mind is the key factor..if this person feels or thinks hes not doing wrong..then he isnt..or if he is doing wrong and he knows it but doesnt care..then he will ultimately be affected by his karma because sub conciously he knows what he did is wrong..even though he denies to acknowledge it or even feel guilt

[Bungle]

Yeah, i sorted this out a while a go. It is simply a matter of right action with right view and right mindfulness. If ya have all of them working and you kill someone then there could be no karma....I think it would be a pretty extreme situation....