The transition towards wushu

[shaolin_disciple_fei_hung]

Try once to compare traditional forms with modern wu shu forms...not possible to...
Not sure if I allready said or not: in martial art there is the word ART, wu shu is a sport, not an art...
Ok it is still possible for a wu shu traiined guy to kill someone, but anyone can kill anyone, just a matter of how much we want it.
In wu shu, there is no application in the forms ( I think I allready wrote it many time)...of course we can find one but not as efficient than in traditonal stuff...
But still I like training in wu shu one time soms, but for fun, not for progress in training (even if good wu shu practitionner are great athlete)

[doc]

I've got a lot written about wushu, versus traditional arts, on the site. You might want to start looking at it. In reality, there are differences between the two.

And there are a lot of similarities.

Don't discount the practice of wushu. There is a lot hidden within.

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by shaolin_disciple_fei_hung
Try once to compare traditional forms with modern wu shu forms...not possible to...
Not sure if I allready said or not: in martial art there is the word ART, wu shu is a sport, not an art...
Ok it is still possible for a wu shu traiined guy to kill someone, but anyone can kill anyone, just a matter of how much we want it.
In wu shu, there is no application in the forms ( I think I allready wrote it many time)...of course we can find one but not as efficient than in traditonal stuff...
But still I like training in wu shu one time soms, but for fun, not for progress in training (even if good wu shu practitionner are great athlete)

-the idea of wushu not being an ART is an opinion.
-also, please re-read my post because i think you have completely misinterpreted it---though knowing myself the post is probably hard to understand.
- generally to the martial arts public: get off the dogma of wushu not being "kung fu"

i'll try to reiterate what i said in a nutshell:
i think that the practice of traditional forms, even without too much if any martial application, is not necessarily a BAD thing. some plp just like the thought of being able to bring a peice of history to life through their actions...i know i do. like i said earlier, i know some forms i practice just to know, because theyre just plain cool/fun to do. but beyond that i practice my martial arts...and i do so quite seriously.

but i think that givem people's attitudes towards "knowing the old stuff", maybe traditional form practice can be seen as a seperate entity from martial aplication. perhaps we can even create a judging system? i am NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! saying that wushu forms are like traditional forms.....in fact i believe i posted the opposite. they cannot really be compared (even this is debatable given that wushu is making its way into the shaolin cirriculum). but im also trying to get off the bandwagon of comparing the two in the first place.


i posted my post so that i can encourage people to think about something other than "wushu ppl cant fight". remember, a bagua practitioner or boxer of what have you might be interested in wushu.

[daodejing]

Dogchow, have you ever read the tao of jeet kune do? Perhaps it is not contempary wushu, but forms of any sort that are crippling the martial arts. Perhaps we should be striving for formlessness.

Oh and WKK is charging entirely too much cash for his seminars in malaysia these days, quite the greedy lil' bastard he is. I'll give you that one arhat......

[doc]

Only three hundred dollars a day.

What's wrong with that? lol....

[beckhead]

Originally posted by daodejing
Dogchow, have you ever read the tao of jeet kune do? Perhaps it is not contempary wushu, but forms of any sort that are crippling the martial arts. Perhaps we should be striving for formlessness.

Oh and WKK is charging entirely too much cash for his seminars in malaysia these days, quite the greedy lil' bastard he is. I'll give you that one arhat......

daodejing, have you read my post? was it not one of the first things i said that forms have done more damage to MA than the gun will ever do?

did i not list one of the advantages in my idea as it being easier for teachers to attract more technique-serious students?


look guys realy i dont wanna be negative, all i did was tell an idea. scrutiny is welcome but dont just say stuff for the sake of saying...thats the problem at shaolinwolf.com and the reason i started posting here in the first place.

to answer your question, i ahve not read much of the Tao, though its on my "**** to do after semester is over" list. i would rather not comment on Lee's writings right now especially over the internet because ppl just tend to regurgitate quotations instead of say what they mean.

[dogchow108]

oops sorry about that im posting from my friend's house and thought i was logged in there.
so that was me right above this post

[daodejing]

My apologies, I did read your post's, just not in their entirety. So though I now realise I may have been beating a dead horse with my words but suffice it say I agree with your ideas about the impact of form on martial arts. While it is a useful training method, many people never transcend forms and styles.

While I do think that your ideas about traditional form competition would be nice, it will never happen. The general public has no interest in seeing well done traditional gongfu. The martial arts community has interest in that, but the general public does not. This is why the martial arts receiving the most exposure are flasy wushu and contact fighting like san shou, muay thai, ufc, etc. No matter, people are stupid in general, and it has always been the case that the vast majority of people doing any activity do not understand the subtler aspects of said activity. Instead of complaining about the loss of traditional MA, perhaps we would do better to go out and learn these things before they are lost, and even if we are not qualified to go teaching the traditional arts themselves, we can teach the world by example and simply, (to quote a wiser man than i) practice wu de as we study.

[doc]

was it not one of the first things i said that forms have done more damage to MA than the gun will ever do?

Do you really feel this way? And why?

Just curious.

[lester1/2jr]

forms are a collection of techniques. 90% of knowing a technique is practicing it on another person moreso with throws and stuff like that. This is one reason why movie kung fu is so not kung fu. To do a succesful application takes many tries usually, in a movie the stunt guy just goes flying when you do something that looks like kung fu.

I went to a hung gar school that JUST taught forms. NO ONE there can fight AT ALL. At least not with anything they learned there. one boxing lesson and you could beat the whole school.

focusing on forms is a peversion of the idea of "art". the "art" of kung fu is not in the beauty of forms, that is a seperate art. the art is the effectiveness of the techniques and their usefullness in unrehersed two or more person situations.

So i reiterate, if your teacher doesn't teach you how to fight, it's not really a kung fu class

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by doc
was it not one of the first things i said that forms have done more damage to MA than the gun will ever do?

Do you really feel this way? And why?

Just curious.

well Doc...its kinda complicated...but really i started thinking about it when i started going to this new teacher that ive been going to for around a year now. you see, ince i started going to a school that actually drills the hell out of techniques they practive it and show not only variation and aplpication, but teach related material as a supplement and historical tracing, i started to see forms differently.

i very intentionally used the example of a GUN here, because even the thought of ppl carrying guns with them dosent cause ppl to neglect martial technique training, even given the historical superiority of the gun compared to the martial technique. though i know someone in an open park can just shoot me if he wanted to, i still practice MA for the occasion when i will fight someone in a diferent scenario.


Forms, however, have done something far worse. thay have caused many people, in some cases like the one lester wrote about, to completely neglect their technique training as far as applying it on ppl goes.

however, though i feel that both forms AND guns have stained martial arts in some ways, i do not think this damage is irreperable. like i said, i kinda wanted to provide a solution...pointing out problems is something any idiot can do, ya know? so suppose that school lester was talking about decides to have some dignity and say "hey, look we just teach forms we dont fight". great! honesty can go a long way here, because then ppl who are just interested in visual aspect of form can stay there and technique-serious students can go "oh...well okay maybe ill even stay here but go also to a teacher who is more martial art oriented".



Daodejing: yea, to be honest i agree...i dont think it will happen. and yes i agree in fact with a lot that you said..most ppl dont realize what they are doing most of the time, PERIOD. but about the whole "kung fu" thing..look, whether you get better at doing forms, beating ppl up, or scratching your nuts- improvement in something due to repeated practice is pretty much what this abused term "kung-fu" means. thats why i say form practice is kung fu...its just not martial training.


also, thanks for reading the post in its entirety then, i erally hope that maybe it can get ppl thinking outside the redundant loop.


once again the disclaimer, tho, i think form practice is good...just for other stuff than kidding yourself that you're becoming better at fighting. i think its awesome to know an old form so you have a peice of martial arts history in your head and so you can see where old/new stuff comes from.


cyas!

[dogchow108]

Oh, btw....i think someone posted about this already, but i dont know where so either send me a link or lets start a thread about this, but i wanted to know if actually there is any way of avoiding learining the wu-shuish stuff if i ever did go to train at the wushu guan in dengfeng?

[SongshanMonk]

posted by doc

was it not one of the first things i said that forms have done more damage to MA than the gun will ever do?

I think forms are essential in martial arts. As stated before, forms are supposed to be made up of techniques that are used in fighting. Have you ever wondered who "invented" forms and why? We can say the Shaolin monks invented forms by watching animals in the beginning but more so for defense and fighting. In my opinion, forms has not damaged MA. It's the numerous MA schools that merely incorporate forms as part of testing for belts thinking that every form they learn is a step closer to earning a black belt or getting that certificate. How many of these instructors really teach the fighting applications to their forms?

I was at an open MA tournament one time and was amazed by what I saw. I saw some competitors do forms in slow motion, some stood there screaming at the top of their lungs moving like a robot. Then came the weapon forms where some of them were scared to even be using the weapon they were demonstrating. We are talking intermediate to advanced contenders here. It was weird experience for me to watch this after training and getting drilled at Shi Xing Hao's school. Suddenly, I saw the difference and it felt for me that what I am learning now would help me in a fight. There is just not enough room to type what an average training day is like for me. But all this leads me to my next point.

To understand forms you have to understand application. To understand application and conditioning yourself you reach mastery. I believe just a small percentage of the MA community really masters a fighting art. Yeah sure you see the black belts, the black sashes....whatever your school has, but you must wonder do they have what it takes? Have they truly mastered their art? Are they in top physical condition? Unless you have the constant training, dedication and guidance to your art be prepared to be confused a lot.

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by SongshanMonk
posted by doc

To understand forms you have to understand application. To understand application and conditioning yourself you reach mastery. I believe just a small percentage of the MA community really masters a fighting art. Yeah sure you see the black belts, the black sashes....whatever your school has, but you must wonder do they have what it takes? Have they truly mastered their art? Are they in top physical condition? Unless you have the constant training, dedication and guidance to your art be prepared to be confused a lot.

ok first off, i accidentally clicked some smiley here so if i misquoted im sorry....

about the black sashes....most "kung-fu" (*shudders*) schools ive seen black sashes in, really, all they have done is learn the basic forms and some 'applications" just for ****s and giggles. in case lester is reading this, you'd be surprised to find out that the hung-gar example you gave me is very similar to the first school i went to, which was also a hung gar school. the thing was a damn joke ( www.kungfuokc.com ). but i didnt stay for too long after i found some stuff out about the teacher. all the class was was simply an aerobics course that looked like it was taken from segments of Shaolin Temple or 36 Chambers.

either way...mine is just one way of looking at forms. My problem is that too many people forget what the point is in knowing a form. i think that the only arguement for the fanatical practicing of forms that even comes close to making any sense is that it helps your endurance...but even then martial arts fights are supposed to be over before anyone ever even breaks a sweat. i dont think they help you with balance and co-ordination as much as i have heard ppl tell me they do because, realistically, everything just feels completely different when it comes to applying technique to an aggressor.

the only real thing forms should be there for is so you have kind of a technique catalogue so you dont forget what you have learned.....KNOWING a "good" form should be as important as if not more than performing it. but people dont like to have this knowlege. they still have this image of people doing fancy movements in their heads when they think of martial arts rather than two people dishing it out. look at pictures of masters and or students in most martial arts webpage and you will see why...almost always the picture is of the guy/girl holding some cameo single whip or the dude standing on one leg in some jet-li posture with his shin raised so damn high he could he could bite off his own knee. ppl, largely, just go for looks in forms.

another thing i think is wrong in trainig these things- if you go through the forms a thousand times and "imagine ur applying the techniques" that is still nowhere near clipping the foreskin of a complete training. guys, you just ahve to drill stuff if you want benefit from the forms.

as for forms coming from monks loking at the movments of animals....that is perhaps believable, i wont really get into that. but even if the earliest of chinese martial arts did start out with some basic animal mimicry, they obviously did more for the martial arts then than they have been doing today. i disagree with you man, i think they HAVE crippled martial arts today, but thats because you have all sorts of idiots today running around claiming to be masters and not really understanding what the purpose of much of their training really served. often, thse guys end up creating the kind of K-F empires running rampant around the US and many other countries outside the orient...and also in tremendous numbers within it. the primary atrocity to the martial arts is producing forms practitioners who dont know how to fight. Forms were useful when people understood their purpose. i dont mean to sound like an elitist here, but i seriously just think very few today do.

[SongshanMonk]

, i think they HAVE crippled martial arts today, but thats because you have all sorts of idiots today running around claiming to be masters and not really understanding what the purpose of much of their training really served. often, thse guys end up creating the kind of K-F empires running rampant around the US and many other countries outside the orient...

Yes, Yes, Yes I totally agree with you on this. This is why forms are often over emphasized in a lot of martial art schools. This is also why many people do not believe in forms. Forms are beneficial for endurance purposes but you cannot over look that forms have a meaning for technique. For example, I have seen with my own eyes Shi Xing Hao teach us Tong Bei (a form). In any given situation whether you were throwing a punch or kick he used techniques from that form to send me flat on my back. Like I said it all depends how well you train and the guidance (meaning sifu) you have. Forms work for me, however, in a spur of the moment fight you have no idea what's going to happen or what the circumstances are going to be. So I am not going to sit here and say "well in a fight, I am just going to bust out Tong Bei" and go at it. Are the chances of me using a technique or two from this form in a fight? Yes. It's all how you train and how often.

another thing i think is wrong in trainig these things- if you go through the forms a thousand times and "imagine ur applying the techniques" that is still nowhere near clipping the foreskin of a complete training. guys, you just ahve to drill stuff if you want benefit from the forms.

yes I agree once again, but you can't forget your basics.

the primary atrocity to the martial arts is producing forms practitioners who dont know how to fight. Forms were useful when people understood their purpose. i dont mean to sound like an elitist here, but i seriously just think very few today do.

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing here, but I think forms taught properly and that are understood serve the purpose rather than just learning forms to attain a rank.