The transition towards wushu

[lester1/2jr]

also, not all the techniques found in forms are that great. Some are secondary to put it charitably.

[dogchow108]

about the example you gave with Shi Xing Hao (who i actually plan on visiting next time i get to go to Houston, maybe we'll see ach other?) understand...as far as a system of fighting methods goes, he dosent use techniques from tongbei quan the form as much as it is the form having the techniques that comprize what is tongbei chuan the "bunch of moves" AKA system of TBC.


as far as basics go..thats a good point, but then theres better ways of practicing basics than just gliding through your forms. if you really want to train your gong bu, you will stay in gong bu for long periods of time, or do drills involving that stance with a partner or several partners, practice slow transitions from stance to stance with attention to how the weight shifts. this is different than getting your basics down by going through forms. same goe for any basic stance, technique, etc.

on the whole, though, we seem to be on the same page.

like i said before, i like forms...in fact i did not say that they have no use---quite the opposite they can be very useful training tools, but the magnitude in which they can be positive can be made negative if they are understood the wrong way. but really i dont wanna take this thing too far off subject from the "transition towards wushu" subject...this is just background stuff for that really long post that i had earlier on like page 3 i think.

[Bungle]

Hi ya
Haven't posted for a while. I'm not really into martial arts right now and just thought i'd check out the site for old times sake. I'm getting into meditation and stuff recently with holosync and sedona method.

Anyway. I've read a book about old japanese martial arts. Kyoru bujutsu. Or something. Anyway, they practice forms but only two man forms and very at that. The vast majority of their stuff is application and mental conditioning through realistic training.

From my perspective the shaolin martial arts are different from other martial arts as there is a different core central goal. IF shaolin is even what it claims to be. Shaolin is primarily concerned with spiritual cultivation. The zen trained mind is far superior to a untrained mind. Techniques can be far more advanced and complex as well as the need for realistic training being done away with.

Non shaolin martial arts should focus on the practical and apllication with realistic training to help the practioner gain the ideal mind set for combat.

Shaolin would focus on cultivating the mind. Different story. I guess that is why they can place more emapasis on sets. With a trained mind the techniques can be understood intuitively. The concious mind is almost a barrier to this learning. Read about learning strategies photo reading for an idea of what i'm talking about.

Anyway, zen conditions the mind to be un reactive and so the practioner will not enter flight or fight response while in combat. They can also focus very powerfully and fight without the use of the concious mind.

Normal practioners condition their minds not to enter flight or fight through realistic training
gotta cut this short. Gotta go

[dogchow108]

im not saying that it is necessarily impossible, but i have yet to meet someone who dosent go into flight or fight mode. the question is, how soon does it come. i guess if you can delay it, then that would be less questionable in my eyes--- partially because i am able to do that to some extent, but if i see the fight coming long enough before, itll happen no matter what i try.

[daodejing]

Well, biologically fight or flight is not one mode. The hormone epinepherine (aka adrenaline) is responsible for the brain going into an all out fight or fornicate mode. The hormone norepinepherine (aka noradrenaline) is responsible for the brain entering a fright or flight mode. These hormones are only released under very stressful conditions.

Therefore it is possible for a person to so zen'd out that being attacked does not stress them. No stress, no hormone release from the adrenal glands. And bungle, thank you for your post. Sometimes its easy to forget that shaolin gongfu is meant to be moving meditation, not a way to fight people. If you happen to learn how to defend yourself from attacks in the process of said meditation, then hey why not.

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by daodejing
Sometimes its easy to forget that shaolin gongfu is meant to be moving meditation, not a way to fight people. If you happen to learn how to defend yourself from attacks in the process of said meditation, then hey why not.

how long have you practiced martial arts?


anyway, i agree that to some degree you can control the response. the thing is, it dosent always take extremely alarming circumstances to trigger such a response. i have had adrenaline just having an IM conversation before.

[daodejing]

how long have you practiced martial arts?

Well I started later than most do, but I've been practicing since the age of nine. I used to compete regularly (in judo) on a national and semi-international (American Canadian Games) level in addition to going to a different local or regional tournament nearly every weekend. I stopped competing and practicing judo at the age of sixteen. Since then I've been practicing aikido and yang style taijiquan as well as teaching myself jeet kune do and applied use of weapons, and drunken boxing just for fun. I eventuallly got to a point where when people ask me what i'm doing I simply say "gongfu" because that's literally what it is. Effort and time. I'm twenty two now, so to stop beating around the bush and answer your question, approximately thirteen years. As I said, I started late.

anyway, i agree that to some degree you can control the response. the thing is, it dosent always take extremely alarming circumstances to trigger such a response. i have had adrenaline just having an IM conversation before.

It sounds like your easily excitable. Nothing that can't be worked on. It's ok though, I've felt myself releasing large amounts of norepinepherine when there were three police offers in my living room last spring (they were stealing my roommates kegs). But that's a story for another day.

[mortal]

teaching myself jeet kune do and applied use of weapons, and drunken boxing just for fun.


Are you serious? Real training in drunken boxing is too hard to be considered fun. Are you learning from a teacher or seminar. Or did you just read about it in a book?

[dogchow108]

depending on the event, yea i might get tensed up pretty quickly...depends on what it is. i am not usually very preserved; i like to let my emotions flow unless i feel they might be a problem.

this has caused me to make an ass out of myself many a time, btw...but thats what/who i am then if thats how ppl see it, heh.

but like i said, when it comes to fighting, i can delay the reaction...last fight i was in i onyl started shaking like 1/2 hr after it had been over. i guess it depends on what you are making yourself ready for...maybe the ability to refrain this reaction is training-specific? i personally would not want it to go away completely--- it has halped me before.

[daodejing]

Are you serious? Real training in drunken boxing is too hard to be considered fun. Are you learning from a teacher or seminar. Or did you just read about it in a book?

No teacher, no seminar, no book. When I first started practicing I watched an old jackie chan movie, memorized some basic techniques, then started drinking. After the first six pack of beer I started stretching, then I went outside and began to experiment with how my body moves and how to derive power from staggering. Yes, it's hard. Yes the basic conditioning excercises are a wee bit painful (but you'd be surprised how much doing pushups on your wrists can strengthen your punching) but it is ALOT of fun once you get into it. So I drank alot at first, and now I can do the moves properly while sober. But i'm still much faster and more powerful in my drunken boxing after a few drinks. Now I invent my own techniques based upon bodily moment and surprise combination strikes, while trying still to derive my power from staggering and ultimately gravity. I don't assume any technique I've "invented" is new. The way I see it I'm just remembering things other gongfu practitioners did long before me. To answer your question, I am serious. Just not normal.

So yes you can teach yourself. Yes its hard, and yes its a hell of alot of fun. And yes it requires alcohol and a great deal of flexibility in my opinion. Not to mention strong knees and a strong yet fluid spine. And for the love of god dont try doing pushups on your wrists till after the age of 18. Talk about injuring the epiphyseal plates of the bones........

[dogchow108]

*jaw drops*

[Bungle]

Um. There is a study oh psychology with regards to martial arts; it's known as hopology. Basically, martials artists are required to gain control over their reptilian and mamillian (i think) brain. Basically, our rections - physical - are controled by these basic root centres of our brains that served our early ancestors during our evolution.

One way to gain control is to practice controlling your reactions when under the sort of stress that will trigger them. Thus you can maintain control under all life threatening situations and use your martial arts freely. The problem being replicating the life threatening situations without hurting yourself.

This is why people argue street fighters are superior to martial artists. The simple combat experience gives them a great degree of control during combat. If a martial artist isn't train to work under these stressful situations then they'll fight under flight or fight which greatly diminishes control and technique.

A zen practioner, buddhist or meditator gains control gradually through meditation. Meditation puts the brain patterns through waking beta to alpha, theta and ,if done while sleeping (yogic sleep), delta. This gives greater concious awareness of the unconcious mind gradually over time. Evetually as more parts are released the practioner delves deeper until they become concious of instincts and evolutionary adaptions at the very root. Once they are released then the mind is free to do as it pleases. Of course, during meditation the practioners mindfulness increases. Mindfullness allows the practioner to take a step back from his reactions and unconcious programs and halt them from taking control. So he needn't release them to control them. Concentration and mindfulness is the key. Very powerful concentration can also be used to stop this.

A monk has the natural advantage but for most people it is too long winded and slow and so the samurai used very realistic and dangerous methods to train their minds and some developed powerful concentration with their bastardized form of zen.

[Jay]

Um. There is a study oh psychology with regards to martial arts; it's known as hopology. Basically, martials artists are required to gain control over their reptilian and mamillian (i think) brain. Basically, our rections - physical - are controled by these basic root centres of our brains that served our early ancestors during our evolution

Hi,
Im quite interested in the effect the mind has on the body when someone has a fight.

I for one get really shook up after a fight from the adrenaline (shaking hands etc). During street fights i find myself having semi blacks outs and loosing total control of what im doing until after the fight (even if im not drunk).

Ive noticed that the more fights I have, the less this effects me, but only like 1% less each time. But still, when I get into a street fight, any martial arts training seems to go out the window. The old 'grab shirt , head down, and start punching' technique comes out. heheh (kind of an embarassing style I feel)

Im interested in reading more into this if anyone knows any books that delve into this subject.
I find it quite interesting. Especially what was mentioned about meditation being used . Ive never really looked into meditation.

Cheers

[shaolinstylee]

Experience with fighting is one of the only ways to control all of this..

I'd expect benefits also from meditation.... Dealing with stress.

[dogchow108]

the question is...how many people do we know who, at the point where theyre going to fight someone, have actually reached the point where this will happen?



for those of you training under a monk.......how many fights have your teachers gotten into and had the opportunity to use this discipline?