question about li peng's classes

[Maestro]

besides, id like to add

do you see how fast monks kick? forget there hand techniques, yea sure maybe they are weak in that area..although not all of them are, de cheng is sick..

if you can kick at a monks speed, which comes from just drilling over and over etc etc, coupled with chinese ma footwork and stances, you should be a capable fighter

amitabha

[emre]

Maestro, I think Mortal was just joking about the funny Bjork clip I linked to.

His general complaint about not having practiced applications or sparring is valid. Learning kicks in forms and practicing them on bags or on the air is good. However, in order to be able to use kicks in a fight, you need to have practiced how to set them up and how to use them against a resisting opponent.

Kicks are very powerful, but they're very risky. If you don't know how to properly set them up, or your timing is a little off, you could end up being wrestled to the ground, which for a chinese martial artist means pretty much being robbed of all of his techniques.

[mortal]

Practicing kicking is not a fighting technique. With a statement like that it makes me wonder if you have ever really practiced true kung fu fighting. This is the problem with shaolin. It has been unfortunatly been reduced to kickboxing. Doing shaolin basics is not going to make you a superior fighter. True knowing how to kick is going to make you more formidable an opponent. If all you want is basic skills take a karate class it is much cheaper and you could brag to all your friends that your a blackbelt. As far as flying kicks go they don't work in real fighting. You will end up being thrown and stomped. Those kicks are just for training. Along with the low stances but most monk masters won't tell you that. They don't tell you much of anything for that matter.

Also I have never ever witnessed any trapping skills from the monks. That is why it looks like kickboxing when they fight.

I hate to sound negative but none of your kicks will ever be as good as the monks. True that is their strength. I don't think anyone has the time or the youth to get their kicks that good. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

I have trained hard core in shaolin for many years and my kicks are by anyones standards pretty spectacular. That is more than most could say. So when I try to give advise you people should listen. It is not just bashing. It is based on experiance.

[emre]

Originally posted by mortal
As far as flying kicks go they don't work in real fighting. You will end up being thrown and stomped. Those kicks are just for training. Along with the low stances but most monk masters won't tell you that. They don't tell you much of anything for that matter.

You have to make a distinction between techniques that are applicable in a greater part of combat and those that are applicable under certain circumstances.

Jumping kicks and low stances are applicable in fighting, you just can't use them as your primary techniques. You can't fight with a low stance, but you can sink into a low stance temporarily to execute a throw or takedown. If you've been training low stances, you won't have a hard time instantly rising back up when you complete the technique. But you're right the greater purpose of low stance training is to build the qi in the legs.

Jumping kicks are sometimes better than rooted high kicks, because you don't have a leg that can be kicked to take you down and you can protect your groin by raising your other foot. Of course, the situations where you can use them are extremely limited, which raises the question of whether it makes sense to spend so much time training something you're not going to use all that often. That's why Southern styles generally don't put much emphasis on high or jumping kicks, and they have a point.

[mortal]

Most of these songshan influenced schools are simply training for performance. That is why they practice many of the flowery harder to get skills(butterfly twists). To impress foreigners. There is nothing wrong with that. I love many of those skills. Just don't think it is fighting.

I disagree. You don't need to go into a low stance to execute a throw or take down. Just do a proper leveraged tech. If you put your self low like that you are leaving yourdelf open to getting stomped. I don't care what your trying to do. Putting yourself in that position is a disadvantage. Looks cool in performances, gets you stomped in real life. Not a good combo.

[emre]

Originally posted by mortal
I disagree. You don't need to go into a low stance to execute a throw or take down. Just do a proper leveraged tech. If you put your self low like that you are leaving yourdelf open to getting stomped. I don't care what your trying to do. Putting yourself in that position is a disadvantage. Looks cool in performances, gets you stomped in real life. Not a good combo.

To take someone down, you need to be controlling their elbow & leg. They can't stomp with a controlled leg. You probably haven't learned the takedown applications in the forms, there are many. They don't all involve sinking down, but there are many that do.

There are a lot of potential applications of being able to sink low and rise back up quickly without compromising your body structure, it's a very useful ability.

[mortal]

What made you think I didn't know takedowns from the forms?

They happen to be very simplistic. I find that the forms are more about moving from high to low. I think the reason would be to increasing your expolsiveness.

I would love to spar someone who thinks they could get low enought to grab my leg.

You know what other shaolin app that is completely useless? The back sweep. Try that in sparring. lol I did. Big mistake.

If anyone is reading this and wants to show me the applications are truly effective. I look forward to a lesson.

[zachsan]

none of you know the art of true combat.

no one can beat my jack daniels bottle over the head technique. no one ever has.

at least i don't remember anyone beating it...

[Maestro]

"Practicing kicking is not a fighting technique."

yea right, say that after i kick you in the throat..lol

so whats taekwondo then? or southern shaolin mok gar? or bak si lum?

"I hate to sound negative but none of your kicks will ever be as good as the monks."

why, because you say so or because you cant?

"His general complaint about not having practiced applications or sparring is valid. Learning kicks in forms and practicing them on bags or on the air is good. However, in order to be able to use kicks in a fight, you need to have practiced how to set them up and how to use them against a resisting opponent."

im aware, hopefully your aware that theres no such thing as a good move that is choregraphed, every move needs to be set up, not just kicks bro

low stances..where did this **** come from? and jumping kicks are combat effective, they are mostly finisher moves, but they are definately worth training

personally, i dont like to say this is shaolin or this is kung fu, because shaolin is to comprehensive to be limited to whatever you think it is or should be, and who the hell are we to judge anyway, yan ming and alot of those monks grew up in the shaolin temple, regardless of whatever you think you know, who are you to judge them? some guy thats trained 5 years or so compared to there lifetime of training, get the hell outta here with that ****

if traditional ma were "better" or superior in anyway that would give training in a traditional art someone a large advantage over something like kickboxing, or "modern shaolin" if this were true everyone would be doing traditional ma for combat

mortal didnt like training with the monks, he says they arent teaching traditional gung fu, ok..so what, so they emphasise basics, and flashy moves, forms he says with no apps..ok

but whats so bad about training the basics? Mas oyama fought ****ing bulls and killed them with 1-2 strikes with a knife hand, when he trained, he went up in the mountains and hit makiwara and trained the BASIC karate attacks thousands of times a day, as well as doing his kata relentlessly

does this mean his techinques were better then others because he trained traditional ma? is his system of karate superior to say praying mantis because hes known for fighting bulls?

the point is if you want traditional, train traditional..its great, i do, i think its definately more beneficial then just training the basics for years and years, only because i want to experience more then that when i can simply do basics on my own, but i will never ever make the mistake of thinking my training makes me superior to anyone, ever..thats a deadly mistake

amitabha

[mortal]

I never said I was better than anyone.

You should try not to curse needlessly in your post. It might give someone the false impression you are taking an agressive stance. Or talking ****.

I am just trying to open your eyes to some facts.

Take it easy you'll get there one day.

As far as chopping a bull. I have just one word. Duh.

Why do you end a post full of needless cursing with amitabha?
Isn't that a contradiction?

I would kick you in the throat faster and harder. lolo

[zachsan]

::TIME OUT::

just a side note... i read once online - and i have no evidence to back it up and i'm not saying it's true, but i think it's an interesting and plausible theory - that the jumping kick was first practiced and made popular as a method for infantry to knock mounted cavalry off of their horses.

::TIME IN::

[Maestro]

exactly, thats what im saying..you could kick the hell out of me..whats non traditional about that? dont you understand that?

you yourself said that you feel the monks "cant fight" why dont they admit it" etc therefore you quit your training at both because of the combat aspects, claiming they are Not Traditional methods, but this i dont understand, because what makes them nontraditional?

if shi yan ming is so "non traditional" why is he so powerful? or is he weak to you? im confused, you feel his method of training is lesser then another even though he himself is at a high level?

dont students train with a master to acquire His skills? isnt that what this is about..

anyhow, sometimes i just write like that..sorry if you felt offended..heheh

kick me in the throat though, yea..lets see some of that wing chun instead

amitabha

[Lipster]

Plausible?

To knock an armoured rider off a moving horse with a mid air kick?

Zack...

Infantry of course being free of any hindrance, [like let's see, hmm, armour?] in sailing two feet in the air at just the right moment to execute a blow strong enough to part a generally heavily armoured cavalryman from his horse. Or are they just wearing loincloths?

Now if we're talking about wkk type chi powered energy jumps..well, say no more - I'm sure some reference to it is sure to be found somewhere in the Wahnam Q+A archives....and there is of course no doubting that source...

[Lipster]

Sorry that should read two meters in the air...

Not to mention the fact that they'd have to be immune to being skewered too...

[mortal]

When did I say traditional or non traditional? I don't have time to reveiw the whole thread.

Yan Ming is very powerful. So is Lipeng and Hengxin. But there are techniques and positioning in kung fu that allows you to defeat your opponent with out power. Also as you get older that power goes Bye bye. I have witnessed that first hand with all three masters. They are not as good as they were when they were younger.
My Wingchun teacher on the other hand is over 40 and he keeps getting better.

The whole thing that attracted me to kung fu was being able to defeat your opponent with out effort. Not by just blindly muscling a side kick into someone because you have been training since you were four. That might work against a non trained fighter. Against a true martial artist you would be over commiting and allowing yourself to get thrown, tackled, locked or worse.

I am not saying the monks can't fight. I am saying they don't know as much as they project about fighting. They no more than most people. But there are masters out there that know much more. Every older generation monk has trained with traditional folk masters. Then they go to the temple and practice wushu and other modernized forms just for performance. Then they come here and talk about how they won tourneys no one ever heard of.

Li peng told me the low stances in the forms are just for training and there is no tech that would be used exactly as it looks in the form. When he does forms certain stances are low and others are high. He said you should be able to move out of them. He said even he can't move quickly out of a low stance. He even showed me he couldn't. He said that stuff is all for performances.