A Shaolin Kungfu Instructor killed himself in Flushing, NY

[sanxin]

iscussion of Hengshan's Death

There are discussions in kungfumagazine.com. See the link:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=44061

Here are what CleanShaolin writes in the forum:

"Shi Guolin" Pushed the Suicide!!!!
"the news that i got from both the media & friends who "used" to donate and support Shi Guolin is that due to blackmailing, abuse of all forms including not paying HengShan any salary or even food money, the young Martial Monk ended his life by hanging himself in Flushing NY.

& this is not the first time that Guolin pushed someone to death, according to 2 Chinese newspapers.

What is shocking is that we still have all these Chinese & American followers who still believe that Guolin is a real monk.

The most sad thing is, on one of the Chinese newspaper, the "World Journal's front page, while publishing the Suicide news, it actually defends Guolin, by saying that he is "busy" getting some "Bardo-practice", or spiritual service done for the dead monk's soul.


Why? Because Guolin pays the news paper thousands of dollars each month for advertising, where does Guolin get the money? not from teaching martial arts, but from Buddhists students who believe that they are doing a great deed!!!!!!!!

Who is REALLY responsible? for Hengshan's death?
Everyone, please, please wake up, including Gene, who i have never met but have a whole world of respect to...

Please wake up to this whole "Shaolin" thing, Shaolin was destroying 2 times after the Ching Dynasty by warlords who were actually Buddhists, to clean up the rape, stealing, & killings that the corrupted temple had been involved in. If you want to see published Chinese documents on this, i have them here or i can email to you guys.

Shaolin, is the laughing stock of many real buddhist people in mainland China and in Taiwan, on media, Buddhism discussion forums, newspapers, for its poverty of real spiritual knowledge and yrs of corruption. Too bad most of us here can’ read Chinese. Even though Yongxin had been trying hard to do some reform, the place's energy/karma is just too messed up to be cleaned up.

Let' keep the issues separate, Guolin is a half-decent MA teacher and was half-normal before the money, women and power got to him in the big apple,(not to say that now Henan is 10 times more corrupted than ny.)

If he openly takes off his "Monk" or "Shi" title, and just teach Martial arts as a business, like Hengxin and Lipeng are doing, i would sent my kid to him as well as many other Chinese Buddhists parents would. We would respect his honesty, but now, no way in hell!!!!

So all Shaolin USA students, please, please take a stand, to leave fake monks, even though that their Kung Fu might be good, this is really about Karma, about paying respects to the dead......

And all Buddhist, before you donate to any temple, think twice, Guolin got big because the general stupidity, superstition of the Chinese Buddhists community. In a sense, Guolin's Karma is everyone else's Karma that's around him. Dont' you agree, Gene?

So if you are mostly looking for enlightenment and real health, LEAVE shaolin related-teachers, period......

Let's really try to keep the Kung Fu training separate from the name of Shaolin. It took me many, many yrs to be able to wake up.

I was an early yr student of both Yanming and Guolin on Allen St, when they both defected from Chan Poi's Shaolin Tour,when they were brothers before Yanming bought a Gun & trying to shoot Guolin.

But if he did shoot, maybe it would have saved a lot of other's lives, like Hengshan's...

A Mi Tuo Fo

Yan Ming, might be a monk with broken wows, but at least he is not a "back-stabber", a "killer". According to ALL other sifus that i have met who know both Guolin and Yangming-Sifu Fukui Yang who used to teach at Yanming's place, Sifu Chen Yan(Bagua Sifu who teaches at Frank Yee's, who was once Guolin's Godsister), Sifu Xian Gao, who got in trouble with supporting prostitution but at least is not hiding behind a monk's robe, Sifu Tailiang Li, Sifu Chen Ying, Sifu Ning Zhao( a master of Chen style taiji who used to teach at Guolin's, who I heard from his student that Hengshan had cried many times about the abuse issue to...which i have to verify myself when he comes back from Henan.), Sifu Ping Zhen who who knows Yanming & Guolin for yrs, Sifu Rengang Wang, etc.. almost EVERY, EVERY Chinese sifu in NY and in Flushing.

The most sarcastic thing is, even Master Guangyi Ren, who used to be partners with Guolin, does not give positive comments about his "EX" Henan brother...

The best thing is that most of these Sifus have contact infos or websites, just call or email them yourself would be the best way...."

And this:

"Suicides are Not always self-determined.
Thank you, Gene, for helping us to have a real place of free speech.

I hope that by seeing all that' false with today's

Shaolin, we can actually be helpful on bringing back the real Shaolin spirit which did exist before the Ching Dynasty, before Shaolin turned into a government dog, like it is now to just bringing in cash for the Henan Province's corrupted officials while whole viliages of AIDs patients next door to it are not getting a penny from them.

Any American here who wants to do a search, just search under "Henan's AIDS village" and you will see what' going on, sure it's not Shaolin's fault, but......

Anyway, the new rumors from Yanzhang and Yanming's people are that Guolin hired kidnappers and killers(which only cost less then 10 grams in the Chinese community here) to kill HengShan so that

a.Hengshan does not report to Yongxin on how dark the NY Shaolin is
b. The attorneys of Hengshan would not report to INS and Dept of Labor for lying to the immigration of paying Hengshan a salary, then Guolin would really got in trouble with the law

... I hope this is only a rumor and I think it is because Guolin did say to the Chinese media that he did lie to the Immigration and Labor dept of not paying Hengshan.

Let's say Hengshan did commit suicide and the death is from many causes, and of course Guolin would still be one of the major ones, nobody can run away from Karma, let's face it."

And this:

"Take Guolin to the Law, please
Please, then, why are they still training there and support ing the "dark" Shaolin.

I am speaking with a few Chinese Buddists attorneys that just for the right causes, we should start a criminal case agaist Guolin, on abuse and also Fraud and lying to the immigration which Guolin openly admitted in his interview on the death case, contact me offline if those Guolin's students are willing to testify as witnesses and of couse some Buddhist Charity groups would come up with a fee to pay for the witness's time.

Again, this is not personal, I think Guolin's Hard Qigong is pretty good that I would even send my son to him if he drops his monk robe.

If the law does not take care of this, Shi Yongxin should, if he doesn't, then maybe......what happened to Hengshan, will happen to Guolin too.......

Also, any Guolin students here, please contact me in PM, for a good cause,

but wait a day or so, Gene is right too, let's see what the cops find on this."

-- ** -- ** --

I am having problems to join in that forum. I tried to join in, but haven't got the email from them. So I could only read, but couldn't talk or reply the post.
Thank you for CleanShaolin to speak up for Hengshan. You told people to contact you, but there is no contact information. I hope it's ok to quote your stuffs here.
I am sure the truth will be exposed soon, if someone still like to play the fire around his own, he will burn himself soon.

[doc]

If the law does not take care of this, Shi Yongxin should,

Comical. Some people need to wake up.

[Chicken]

I don't think you know too much about kung fu. Guolin was not paranoid. He was stating fact.



Since when is a person mad for factually stating reality?

Why do people that do not understand things speak negatively about others that do understand things? Why aren't people willing to admit that their ignorance of of something prevents them from understanding it?

It would be helpful to you to open your mind and find a real kung fu teacher.

I'm not very good with the quote function, but I needed to respond to Happeh's comments.

My reality and your reality Happeh must be subjectively quite different. I've been in a very similar situation, here in the UK, so I don't need to open my mind, I can just rely on experience.

At the time I was totally paranoid, and incredibly scared that Yanzi could find us... I don't study wushu & gongfu... he's lethal - I felt very vulnerable. The police were also paranoid and clearly feeling vulnerable: I can't think why else they would ask for an armed escort to approach Yanzi to get Hengxuan's passort back.

Hengxuan however, is a real Shaolin Warrior, and, according to the feedback we get, an excellent gongfu teacher. With the fearlessness and clear mind that can only have come from 13 years of shaolin training, he knew these were hollow threats and told me to stop being paranoid!

He also knew that despite all these going on, Yanzi and Guolin to the best of his knowledge have never used their abilities outside the spiritual auspices of Shaolin, and we have faith that they never will. Things have completely calmed down - in the UK at least - and nobody is threatening anybody anymore, its all in the past.

Happeh, if you want proof in the pudding, to my face Yanzi justified keeping Hengxuan's passort because he believed he wouldn't be able to find him if he went back to China.

Hengxuan didn't choose suicide as a solution, despite that he was being tyranised. We declared his passport void, got him an exit visa out of the UK and got him back to China where Yanzi couldn't find us.

We're back in the UK now, and believe me, even if they wanted to find us - and they don't - they can't, and even if they could, we'd just get a restraining order and get the police to enforce it.

With the exception of Yan Zhang (who is Hengxuan's shifu), Hengxuan is the best gongfu teacher I know. I've no intention to learn gongfu from him, although going by the last 2 days I think he's going to turn out to be an excellent husband!

Chicken

[doc]

I've said this before about Guolin. And Yanming. And, now, from reading these above posts, I'll comment about it again.

Why so much drama? So much internet activity. With "monks"?

You never hear things about Deyang. Decheng. The older generation....

[Iron Cross]

OH hell what about the other shaolin schools in the US or NY for that matter? heng Xin? The schools in Houston? The school in Englad? There are others too are there not? I think he very fact We don't hear so much about them speaks volumes....

Where theres smoke.....

[Chicken]

Spinning

I am wondering what the maximum penalty is for failing to process the immigration paperwork, as I imagine this is the minimum that Guolin / whoever sponsored and brought Jimei over is going to face.

I conject that the police investigation will have to address Hengshan's visa situation, which if seen as a contributing factor to his death, would mean a charge of manslaughter is being considered. Many employers also fail to process their charges' visas, but it doesn't result in a rash of suicides / deaths, so I don't think the charge will hold.

It would be interesting to know if there is a precedent for retribution on employers who do not keep up with the paperwork, where the applicant suicides and its seen as a contributing factor... this can't be the first time something like this has happened.

I hope the police investigation leads to a ban on sponsoring any further applications for whoever is responsible for the failed paperwork, as, all things remaining the same, it would appear to help ensure that this does not happen again .

Still I worry for those warriors who are still in this situation... this "Godmother" delusion... what's that all about? The term "Godmother" is an emotive one: we tend to think that all "Godmothers" are good. The Shaolin don't believe in God(s), so how has a godmother crept into all of this!?!

This woman is Guolin's PR - Damage Control Agent, spining stuff to Jimei, to his family back in China, to the press. She is being held out as virtuous in this situation. However Heng Shan seemed to believe her spinning and held her out as a saviour in the situation - but she turned out to be a false dawn, and wasn't actually there for him when he needed her... too busy deluding and spinning for Guolin.

Sanxin and anyone close to the situation in NY please ensure that the rest of the NY warriors are not invested in this wolf in lambskin clothing "Godmother" delusion.

Chicken

[doc]

There is no legal liabliity on Guolin's part; suicide can't legally be "blamed" on someone else, unless there's Kool Aid involved.

Also, the filing of Hengshan's immigration paperwork was his responsibility, not Guolin's. On a legal level that is, not on an ethical one. When we employed Xingwei, we took care of all of his immigration stuff, out of concern for our employee, not because we had to. You can't bring the police down on Guolin for not processing Hengshan's visa paperwork; however, you can fault him and process him for hiring an illegal alien. Which Hengshan may or may not have been at the time. I don't know. The penalties for hiring illegal aliens are laughable, employers just have to say that they didn't know, and generally, walk away from the issue. It's a situation that benefits the employer, and definitely not the employee. Sad situation for Hengshan.

[Chicken]

Hi Doc, I thought you might have an angle on this, thanks for the enlightenment.

Its a bit different in the UK...

Home Office denies cocklepicker error
Saturday March 25, 2006

The Home Office has denied that a lack of action over the criminal gangs contributed to the deaths of the Chinese cockle pickers in Morecombe Bay.

Labour's Geraldine Smith, MP for the area, has accused the Home Office of refusing to take serious action against the criminals that organise the work-gangs such as the one in Morecombe Bay.

Home Office minister Tony McNulty has reacted firmly to these suggestions. He said: "I would say to those who say that, were the Home Office
and the government more reactive, this appalling tragedy wouldn't have happened – I'm afraid life's not as simple as that.

"We deal with illegal working as much as we can and in full, but there are other factors, like the willingness of the illegal workers themselves to assist us and we're trying to deal with things like that as well."

The Home Office claims that 3,000 operations by police have resulted in the disbandment of 150 criminal gangs in two years.

The gangmaster Lin Liang Ren was found guilty of manslaughter at Preston crown court, while two other Chinese nationals were also ruled to have contributed to the drownings in February 2004.

Ren, 29, and his girlfriend Zhao Xiao Qing, 21, who were both from Liverpool, were also found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice by trying to conceal who had sent the cocklers out.

Two Britons, described as middlemen in the operation, were cleared of facilitation offences.

During the six-month trial, the court heard a harrowing phone call from one of the immigrants who died on the stormy winter night. During it he repeatedly told a police operator that there was "sinking water" before the phone went dead.

It is believed that 23 immigrants died in the tragedy, but only 21 bodies were ever found.

Of the 18 men and three women known to have died, 20 were from the Fujian province in south-east China and one is from the Liaoning province in north-east China.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is an infamous tragic incident here in the UK. I was absolutely stunned when I realised that Hengxuan was in a similar situation, having his passport withheld by his employer and having money extorted from him. It is however noted by many agencies that it is nearly a standard practice amongst Mainland Chinese employers.

Our UK immigration agencies are lax so its very easy to slip off the radar and survive in the UK as an illegal immigrant... so most do this rather than subject themselves to the abuse as Jimei seems to have done.

Chicken

[sanxin]

Hengshan said, "Si (play, acting, fake..), Si, Si, Everything is Si"

I believe Guolin controls all of his believers, including "God-mom","God-sister" and whatever the roles are. He has everyone plays different roles in his play, establishing this shining gold temple.

Hengshan is a very innocent person. He treats everyone with sincere heart so naturally. He needs love from everyone as well, although he never said that, and he was probably not aware of that by himself.

Liangmei Huang, around 40s or 50s year-old woman. I don't know exactly her age. But she is not young. Her daughter practices in Guolin's Temple as well.

In the very beginning when Hengshan came to New York, Liangmei Huang show her care and concern to Hengshan. That time Guolin always yell at Hengshan. He told Hengshan not to have contacts with this woman. Guolin told Hengshan and me (when I, Sanxin, was there also) that Liangmei Huang is "not a good woman. Be careful of her!" He yell at Hengshan in front of many students of Hengshan, although they didn't understand what Guolin was upset about. (None of those students speak and understand Mandarin). I am sure if some of you saw this, you (Nataya, Vera....) will remember that night, Guolin kick everyone out earlier to end Hengshan's class that night. All I knew is that there are problems between Liangmei Huang and Guolin. I saw them argued many times. That time I really thought they were having problems. And Hengshan really trust Liangmei Huang as his supporter and told her many things. I, myself, didn't even realize Huang and Guolin were just acting until Hengshan's death.

Later, after Hengshan committing suicide, Guolin and Liangmei Huang start acting in different ways:
Liang "became his god-sister", and Mrs Tsai "becomes his god-mom".
They hold the press conference on Nov 28, Liangmei Huang spoke up for Guolin most of the time, while Guolin was just crying with tears in front of the press. Liang told the press Guolin asked her to take Hengshan to see the doctor many times.

On Nov 27, Guolin, Liangmei Huang, and Shi Yan Ju went to New York Hospital in Jamica to stop Shifu Yanzhang to check Hengshan's body. (See news on Nov. 28, Lin Jing, China Press)(they had told the press Hengshan's death is not committing suicide before, and there is an injury on his face possibly caused by a kick, which is possibly from Yanzhang. Yanzhang got very angry, he decided to have doctor to check Hengshan's body. Originally we didn't want autopsy, because we want Hengshan to leave with his own complete body). Yanzhang yell at Guolin while they tried to stop Yanzhang to exam the body, "what a evil! You don't even want Hengshan left with his complete body(Chinese "quan Si"). Reporter of Sinovision(sinovision.net), LJ Bian ran to the hospital, trying to catch the argument. She arrived late, but got the information from the hospital and interviewed Yanzhang.

While Guolin told Shifu Yanzhang "sit down,relax, and talk", on the other side, Lianmei Huang was already sent by Guolin to China,"comforting" Hengshan's parents, She then told everyone "I am Hengshan's God-sister" Now I understand all of these.

I was reading Hengshan's writing after his death. He wrote, "Si (means play, acting, fake..), Si, Si, everythins is Si.... More interesting "Si" to be watched later...." and "Hai Zen Zhi Xin Bu Ke Yio (means "can not have the mind of harming peop"), the mind of Huang...." He didn't continue the writing. Then there are fragments of writing of chan, Buddhism ..I was tearing with the twisting pain. So Hengshan, you realize all of these already. And you didn't tell me. I wish I had tricks to let you tell me what you were really suffering from. Or I was aware of all the complex situation in that temple earlier. And how much harm they've done to you. So you didn't end up with this choice.

I still don't understand why they act in front of people. What for?
Why do they waste their life doing all of these? What do they want? Are they not tired by making all the plans?

I realize that Guoin has the skills that let people dislike each other and suspect each other, and believe Guolin himself is the only good one that you can trust. Maybe that's the way he can control people.

Mrs. Tsai, so called Hengshan's "god-mom": Mrs. Tsai is actually Shi Xiao Long's "God-mom". She is also Guolin's supporter since the very beginning when Guolin established his kungfu school in New York. Hengshan and Xiao Long get along very well. They practiced Kungfu together sometimes. Xiao Long is Mrs Tsai's "treasure". I believe Hengshan need cares from "God-mom" or "God"-whatever as well. But he didn't understand all the people he trust around him is the ones to push him closer and closer to death.

On Nov. 24, Hengshan called Mrs Tsai to meet with her at 12 at noon in Flushing public library. He told me on the phone he was going to get his passport back. He want to buy a ticket to go back to China, and find a place to become a Buddhist monk. Mrs Tsai didn't show up on time. Around 12:50 he was found hanging himself in one backyard near botanical garden.

[doc]

I was absolutely stunned when I realised that Hengxuan was in a similar situation, having his passport withheld by his employer and having money extorted from him. It is however noted by many agencies that it is nearly a standard practice amongst Mainland Chinese employers.


Chicken

Not all employers of immigrant Chinese function as this. I for one, took very care of Xingwei when I brought him here, contrary to the lies and deception that he spread when he move on to open his own school. Again, these ****ing people can be treacherous. As I've said in a different post, they live by different rules. Honor has no meaning.

Extortion is a different issue. If US law deems Guolin's alleged actions against Hengshan as extortion, then Hengshan's suicide might play a role in that case. Extortion is one thing, manslaughter is another. Don't try to mix them up.

[doc]

I realize that Guoin has the skills that let people dislike each other and suspect each other, and believe Guolin himself is the only good one that you can trust. Maybe that's the way he can control people.

There's a medical term, an actual psychiatric diagnosis, that goes along with this type of behavior, but I'm blocking on it now.

[sanxin]

Bad Reputation! So What?

Yea, "He may not have had any sort of responsibility in this event, but people are going to look at Guolin in different, tanted, light now."(quote from doc)
But so What?

If all what Guolin wants is money, then his "bad reputation" won't be a big deal for him, since he is not looking for the immortal spiritual path and interaction with people. Buddhism is just his temporary tool. He could just simply close the temple, and say bye to everyone with all his collection of investment from his religious followersand supporters. It doesn't hurt him, but it will hurt this community and people here.

For so many times, Guolin told us that he didn't have money. He needs more supports and donation to establish a temple or a bigger one for the community. He burst into tears in the anniversary, when he and his supporters were trying to sell some statues and antiques to collect fund. His tears were really moving everyone. Before he moved to his current permanent location, he had told us the rent for the temple was getting higher, and the contract is ending soon. And he had no money to move to a new place. He said he would probably just close the temple and move to upstate to be a monk there alone. All the students and supporters were very worried that we will lose a master like him. We felt sad. We gathered donation from students and his religious followers to help him to buy a permanent temple at 41st Ave, Flushing.

And now he is still crying in front of people in the press conference, "Hengshan is a good disciple. He has told me so many times that he want to help me to establish the temple. I can swear. He didn't want to receive salary from me ...." (I really have to translate all what he said in his press conference.) Yea, if he told people he will be broke or die if they got money from him, then Who will feel comfortable to get money from this poor, dying master? Especially for the compassionate one like Hengshan. And this poor, dying master is your spiritual or kungfu master. Yea, he is smart to make people say by themselves with "their heart". He is digging out old religious ladies' bank account. He has no money to pay a little money to support this poor, innocent employee?

I have to admit that Guolin is very smart. He knows what you hunger for: money? love? power? kungfu? philosophy? or exotic culture? He knows what to fill your empty and hungry mind. He will reject $200/hr private lesson. "I don't have time for this.". Then you are even more hungry for this treasure. He could point at your problems after you show him a kungfu form. You would have nothing to say but just "Amituofo!" Just because he is smart, so he could successfully control people. But then he would tell you "I am not a good mangager to deal with people.", when all the politics fights happen in his temple, and no one realize he is actually the one cause all the fights between people. You will complain the others to him. Behind the others, he will agree with you that you are right and the others are wrong and bad. Then you will work even harder for him, and try to help this "unsucessful and frustrated manager" with all your passions. He does that to each individual, and has everyone believe he is the only good one you can trust.

We are all fooled by him. And I see many people are still inside, and defend for this "crying" master. I have to say I am very amazed by his genius social skills.

[unavailable]

Question:

Sanxin, what do you think is Shi Yanju's role in all of this?

[Chicken]

What is really happening here

Damn BTL, sometimes your thhoughts do get confusing to unravel !

Now, if your screwing over your fellow monks and then not renewing their visas so they become illegal aliens and have no means to make the money the need to get home, well,,,, now thats just being a Dick ! Isn't it ?!?! Not to mention it's not very Buddhist. A lot less Buddhis than getting married, I would say.

Baiwanxi, couple of things I want to say about these above statements.

I love the type of stream of consciousness that comes out of BTL even though it does frustrate me in that it takes time to unravel, and we're currently in this now, now, now world that gives us little time to reflect on the consciousness of others.

Please keep enlightening us BTL!

On the second paragraph:

1. All those that have been responsible for this (Guolin, Yanzi, etc.) in my mind are guilty only of negligence, they do not wilfully get behind with the immigration paperwork,they are not "screwing over" these guys by getting them in this position. We know this, as least of all it makes it very difficult for the Abbot involved to bring anyone else over.
2. They cannot read english, and even if they could, you need a brain as big as doc's to understand the Immigration Law, Process and Requirements needed to accurately apply for a visa or extension (I almost got my head round it well sufficiently to realise its like months of police, lawyers, paperwork, applications fees, paperwork, STRESSSSSSSSS and we were heading down the marriage route anyway... ).
3. They are dependent on the people around them... these guys can not tell the difference between a good and a bad lawyer, nor a good or bad advisor, so instead of doing their homework and paying the going rate to get the job done, they just take on whoever is inclined to help them. The helpers are generally doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, and are not necessarily best qualified or experienced and more to the point are doing it voluntarily... which means that everything else in their lives usually takes preference.
4. Thus the visa renewal applications get behind.

Because this is so likely to happen, unless anyone who can command the immigration work required steps up to support the overseas temples, its inevitable that the warriors that are brought over will wind up in these positions.

Once they are in this position, i.e. you overstay a visa (past the ultimate deadline), if you want to stay in UK / US you have to go illegal. If you go back to China, they Embassies will never give you another visa back again (because you've already overstayed one, so you're very likely to do it again.) Once this happens, the guys have to choose between their lives in the west and never seeing their families in China again. Unless they marry a national. Its very difficult to do this once you've gone back to China... so they stay in the West illegally, until they can find someone who will marry them.

So what I am trying to say here is that there is a cause and effect happening here.

Cause: the Abbots are completely out of their depths in keeping up with the visa paperwork
Effect 1: the warrior charges mostly all Heng and Xing generations get married.

Clearly other possible effects are:

Option 2: stay indefinitely as an illegal alien (with all the problems that go with that)
Option 3: go home to China and never come back
Option 4: break with the Abbot and get someone else to help them with the paperwork
Option 5: commit suicide

So far most have gone with Effect 1, followed by opiton 3, there has been some success in the UK with Option 4. Some linger in 2 for a while before they fall into Effect 1 or Option 3, and only one has gone with Option 5.

With Hengshan, it appears that he would not break with the Abbot, eventually because Guolin couldn't complete the paperwork, Guolin broke with Hengshan. Hengshan could have relied on friends, continued with Option 2, 3 & 4 or even gone back to Effect 1.... instead he choose Option 5.

So I conclude, the negligence of not processing the visa applications does compromise the warriors but it is not wilfull (they are not trying to "screw anyone over") and there are many other outcomes other than suicide. Unless the Abbots work out how to keep up with the immigration work, I predict that there will be no unity in around the overseas Abbots, and that most of the warriors who stay will marry.

Chicken

[doc]

Chicken, I moved this post out of HELL, and put it here, as it was too valuable to waste on BL.