Authenticity of monks

[LFJ]

The warriors were rewarded the privilege of eating meat and drinking wine, and not refraining from taking life by Emperor Li Shimin in the 600s.

I realise a lot of people still consider it not Buddhist to take what the Emperor says over Buddist beliefs, so alleging that they are not really Buddhists... but the reality in China is quite different in line with the different socio-political topology. The Emperor is percieved as the link between Heaven and the celestial plain. Therefore what he says counts. Its been like this for close nearly 5,000 years... its not just a belief, its an absolute to the Chinese.

being rewarded such "privileges" though (if you want to call them that) doesnt mean you have to partake.

if the wuseng ate meat i'm sure it wasnt on temple grounds. they must observe ten precepts and bodhisattva precepts when in the temple. though they are only ordained with five precepts, which means they can already eat meat and drink wine. just not kill.

so if eating meat, drinking wine, and taking life were allowed for them that means the emperor let them do it while in the temple- the place where it was strictly prohibited for them.

but i highly doubt any heshang of the past would take the word of an emperor over the buddha. those i have met in china still say the same. the heshang and wuseng are a different bunch. i dont think the heshang would let that slide in the temple.

bodhidharma taught from only one sutra, the lankavatara, where vegetarianism was huge and is a huge part in the bodhisattva path and in the bodhisattva precepts the chinese heshang must take to be ordained.

one reason i think they'd stick to the buddha over the emperor is:

heshang in the past, when they became monks, they took the family name of their teachers. often foreign. obviously showing they werent so deep with confucianism. but they later took the name of shakyamuni for monastics to avoid persecution. so, if they arent so concerned with even confucianism, leaving home (not to say they dont follow some confucian morals), i doubt they'd care too much more about ancestor worship or the mandate of heaven and all those other classical chinese goodies. (often referred to as mere superstition by the buddha, to be avoided) the emperor just runs the kingdom. the monastery though is all buddha's jurisdiction. no wuseng would be allowed to break the buddha's word because of the emperor.

but back to vegetarianism, i actually wouldnt be surprised if the number that didnt partake was greater than those that did. as shi decheng explained they are vegetarian in the temple and outside it is their choice. but usually they'll stick with vegetarianism. i remember shi xinghao in that documentary talking about first coming to usa and trying to eat hamburgers which was really difficult.

but still, even if they are allowed to eat meat just wonder how easy it would be to have it available. unless they went out and killed animals themselves for food. and i'm sure the only time they took life if they ever had to was in battle. not in finding food. vegetarianism is so much easier.

my mother-in-law almost starved to death growing up in southern china eating roaches and bark off the trees. and even recently, meat is very expensive for people living in small villages. she's pretty much vegetarian because she has to.

back again with the wuseng though, i think living in the temple and so not partaking in their "privilege" has made vegetarianism stick to some degree.

an even more solid example of wuseng sticking with vegetarianism despite any grant from the emperor is shi dejian and the school under his lineage. if you are a student there you must be vegetarian. thats a pretty tough rule.

here's a pretty interesting read on gongfu and vegetarianism from that site:

http://www.shaolinwugulun.org/xjy.asp?PID=107

[doc]

so the good news though is that the wuseng ordination has been explained. they are ordained with five precepts, as i suspected was the only possibility. which means guys like yanming are still ordained and just fine having kids and all. they are monastics yet still secular as

You're assuming that "guys like yanming" were "ordained with five precepts".

Herein lies the problem.

Many of these "later guys" have not done so....

[Chicken]

Herein lies the problem.

Many of these "later guys" have not done so....

Vicarious hypocracy - from you Doc, surely not...

Herein lies the problem.

Many of those "former guys" have not done so either....

I don't think the ticket counts. If it matters to you, then: does it look like a monk? Does it act like one? Well that's all you really need as far as I'm concerned.

LFJ

being rewarded such "privileges" though (if you want to call them that) doesnt mean you have to partake.

Umm. If you have a blood thirsty Emperor, who has absolute power, I think you will find that the decision tree becomes lop-sided till only the Emperor's view of the solution are options. As is the present case with the CCP, I should add.

but i highly doubt any heshang of the past would take the word of an emperor over the buddha. those i have met in china still say the same. the heshang and wuseng are a different bunch. i dont think the heshang would let that slide in the temple.

-> LFJ, look some monks are themselves, some go along with whatever you want them to be. The latter is more than a survival tactic in China, its another absolute societal rule. You have your position, you do as you are told, you be what they tell you to be, and if you do this well, your time will come...

if the wuseng ate meat i'm sure it wasnt on temple grounds.

You think they DON'T eat meat and drink wine on the Temple grounds? LOL

they must observe ten precepts and bodhisattva precepts when in the temple. though they are only ordained with five precepts, which means they can already eat meat and drink wine. just not kill.

Only since 600s that hasn't applied to them, and the Buddist food only extends as far as what the Temple serves up at dinner time, go check out what they have stashed in their larders...

heshang in the past, when they became monks, they took the family name of their teachers. often foreign. obviously showing they werent so deep with confucianism. but they later took the name of shakyamuni for monastics to avoid persecution. so, if they arent so concerned with even confucianism, leaving home (not to say they dont follow some confucian morals), i doubt they'd care too much more about ancestor worship or the mandate of heaven and all those other classical chinese goodies. (often referred to as mere superstition by the buddha, to be avoided) the emperor just runs the kingdom. the monastery though is all buddha's jurisdiction. no wuseng would be allowed to break the buddha's word because of the emperor.

or perhaps they took the names because its the tradition? Or because they were scoundrels and they needed to change their name... I think that's a gross assumption with a large helping of wishful thinking. As for no Buddha being allowed to break the Buddha's word. I think you got that completely wrong. The whole thing about Buddhism is not about copying the buddha or following his words, its about finding your own truths... if you have to do what the Emperor asks in order to ensure that you or your family don't suffer... what do you think is the right buddhist thing to do. And do you think that the Abbot is going to advocate that a convert jeopardises his family and himself. I don't think that that is Buddhism either.

The mainland Chinese, at least the rural Chinese don't really go in for Ancestral Worship these days, that's very much a Taiwanese / Huaqiao thing... (has anyone else seen Ancestral Worship taken as seriously as it is in Taiwan and South East Asia, in China?).

Most of all the Buddhist maxim that you have to fit in with your environment, which includes the Emperor under whose great nation you are a subject, who allows you to live your peaceful existance on the side of the Song Shan mountain... you think they're gonna piss him off? Er I don't think so!

i remember shi xinghao in that documentary talking about first coming to usa and trying to eat hamburgers which was really difficult.

You believe what they say in documentaries...? Please go back to -> above... yes probably because he wasn't use to eating with his hands, not because he'd never eaten meat before!

but still, even if they are allowed to eat meat just wonder how easy it would be to have it available. unless they went out and killed animals themselves for food. and i'm sure the only time they took life if they ever had to was in battle. not in finding food. vegetarianism is so much easier.

Umm... how about went to the market in Dengfeng and bought some? Or someone way back in the 500's was already supplying meat door to door before Shaolin was even thought off? If your argument that vegetarianism is easier was valid, the human race would be herbivors in the most part, not carnivors!!!

But LFJ I do agree with you that they do tend to default to vegetarianism and the mainland Chinese that I know, seem to err towards eating about half the amount of meat in comparison to the western diet. This is even when meat is freely available to them. I think you find, that eating meat does affect the mentality, and its more a point of, if you have a couple of thousand warriors or students under you... controling the access to animal proteins is a way of keeping order.

LFJ, IMHO this is not one of your better posts, as most of what you say here just does not hold true in reality. Despite how this is sure to appear, its not my intention to trash what you say... most of the time you come up with some extremely well reasoned and respectible content, and I look forward to more of it.

Respectfully,

Chicken

[LFJ]

doc-

what do you suppose these "later guys" have done then? "guys like yanming" means wuseng, who are ordained with five precepts- sometimes ten. how much do you know about the ordination of these later guys like yanming?
----------------


thanks for tearing my post apart, chicken. lol

but first of all, everything i said in that post was my opinion. its what i would assume. it was your opinion that was expressed as well. dont make it sound too solid.

and i was speaking about a heshang point of view more than the wuseng. from any temple, not just shaolin.

but anyway, i doubt the emperor served them all up a plate of meat with wine and watched them eat and drink it every night. they were just allowed to. not forced to. am i correct? doesnt the story about saving the emperor go that he offered them a place on the imperial army, and they declined? who knows?

ancestor worship- where do you think those modern day taiwanese came from? buddhist monks anyhow dont practice that. but you were indeed speaking of the mandate of heaven as a reason why the monks or chinese would take what the emperor says as number one. that was a big part of chinese life. but not part of a buddhist monk's life.

and yes, nowadays ancestor worship is still practiced in china by many. my wife's whole family still does that. they live in a small village in southern china. some have moved into guangzhou for business but still practice that. every day, not just during the spring festival. my wife and i are now living in usa and every night after making dinner it is placed out on the table and she makes offerings to her ancestors before she touches it. she even does this while in public restaurants. she wont eat unless she has offered.

as for xinghao on the documentary, of course i dont believe everything i see or hear. but just for an example. i dont know why he would lie about this. but what he said specifically was "hen nan xia kou" 很难下口, meaning it was hard to swallow. literally it was very difficult to go down the mouth. that gives the idea of it not being very appetizing.

and dejian's people. you cant even be a student at that school without becoming vegetarian....

i just see vegetarianism as such a normal part of life to them. this may be nowadays, but its an even bigger choice now. i think the wuseng were allowed to be exempted from these specific vows. not that they were required to eat meat and drink wine. just that the emperor no longer wanted them to be under such rules. give them more freedom and make better warriors out of them... more useful as a soldier monk than a praying monk with so many rules.

[master-lu]

LFJ don't waste to much effort on chicken- nothing real holds true in his reality!

-In chickens shaolin, the monks throw pool parties in the newly built temple pool and get down with loads of foreign girls brought over by Yan ming and drink tubs of "special water". Ofcourse there is a lot of secret qi gong being done there too. Shi dejian sits in his mountain cave thinking -damn! Why did I have to become a monk and take this buddhism thing so seriously??!! I could be down there partying. The Abbot makes sure to invite important politicians moviemakers and game makers so that they can be impressed with the modern cheerful shaolin well intuned with the governments needs and also his own. The first song that the "kung fu DJ" plays is of course everybody was "kong fu fighting" the second one "Sholin shadowboxing" perfomed by wutang clan who are there too and the third on -"money money money moneeeeyyy" This one accompanied by the Abbot himself with the mic in his kung fu grip. The fourth song is performed by Yan ming- and rapper Exhibit of the alcoholics- "Call it what you want to call it, I'm a ****in' alcoholic"
All of this ofcourse well in line with their version of buddhism that "holds true in reality!"
Secret qigong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi Yan-LU

[onesp1ng]

funny, but don't you mean "her" reality? never knew gender could be so puzzling...lol

[master-lu]

True. I just assumed, well sure it could be a girl..

[LFJ]

if chicken is a girl, she would be called hen, or chicket or something....

[Chicken]

Biology Class Revision

Master Lu
now I think that mocked up would make a blinding YOUTUBE LOL

Actually I don't think that you're all that far from the truth... only the Chinese don't have a great affinity with water (other than the very special water) so there wouldn't be a pool or someone would be drowning in it with the others all standing round looking for a westerner to go in and fish them out.

Sorry but I'm a realist. It never ceases to amaze me what Westerners will project on to them. We can all sit behind our laptops and postulate, but it will never take over from plain old being there and seeing it with your own eyes.

LFJ

thanks for tearing my post apart, chicken. lol

You are welcome!

but first of all, everything i said in that post was my opinion. its what i would assume. it was your opinion that was expressed as well. dont make it sound too solid.

only, much of what I have said in the post are observations and not assumptions.

and i was speaking about a heshang point of view more than the wuseng. from any temple, not just shaolin.

But I think this is a very risky assumption. Shaolin was/is not just a Buddhist Monastry. Its was the equivalent of a Buddhist Monastry come SAS at the same time. Up until we introduced guns to China back in the last century, they were unassailable, but very handy to have up your sleeve whenever you had real sh1t that needed sorted out.

If you imagine them with guns... and what appears to be going on at Yan Ming's it doesn't take a very large leap of the imagination to get to a Wacko situation.

but anyway, i doubt the emperor served them all up a plate of meat with wine and watched them eat and drink it every night. they were just allowed to. not forced to. am i correct? doesnt the story about saving the emperor go that he offered them a place on the imperial army, and they declined? who knows?

Agree

ancestor worship- where do you think those modern day taiwanese came from? buddhist monks anyhow dont practice that. but you were indeed speaking of the mandate of heaven as a reason why the monks or chinese would take what the emperor says as number one. that was a big part of chinese life. but not part of a buddhist monk's life.

Yes but something called Communism happened in the last 70 years and culture did evolve. I'm not implying that the Chinese take the spiritual mandate of heaven as the logic behind making the emperor numbero uno. But practically its the socio-political reality, both then and now. Look to draw you an assimily, the UK's Queen is head of the Church of England. I don't think that anyone really believes that spiritually she is between you and God, but practically everything the C of E does has to have the Queen's approval. We get a flavour of what this actually means in as much as the ambitions that Prince Charles has for re-inventing religion in the UK. I'm sure it makes traditionalists' blood run cold, but he's trying to bring about a religion that is more reflective of the people of Britain than that which the C of E currently beholds. As he's next in line to the throne, and the throne has that position & power, if his time comes, he can try to effect that. I doubt that he will, as it takes a younger man to orchestrate such far-reaching & ambitious plans. So its far more interesting to see Prince William's agenda unravelling... I don't think he's up with the programme yet.

and yes, nowadays ancestor worship is still practiced in china by many. my wife's whole family still does that. they live in a small village in southern china. some have moved into guangzhou for business but still practice that. every day, not just during the spring festival. my wife and i are now living in usa and every night after making dinner it is placed out on the table and she makes offerings to her ancestors before she touches it. she even does this while in public restaurants. she wont eat unless she has offered.

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Still I would not take anything down here in Guangdong as reflective of China as a whole. Its like taking for example the Turkish and saying they are representative of all Europeans. Couldn't be further from the Truth.

as for xinghao on the documentary, of course i dont believe everything i see or hear. but just for an example. i dont know why he would lie about this. but what he said specifically was "hen nan xia kou" 很难下口, meaning it was hard to swallow. literally it was very difficult to go down the mouth. that gives the idea of it not being very appetizing.

we were taking pictures deep in the forest this Jan, the warriors had been out since 6.30am modelling half the time in warrior uniforms, it was like <4C and despite all the coffee and tea they could drink they were near frozen & ravenous by the time I got out and back in with lunch at about 1.15pm. SHX loves white French style bread and so he devoured some... the photographers were beside themselves as he became poleaxed by indigestion, pointing out "mmm... you can't lay a hand on them, but you can take out with a piece of bread....LOL LOL"

and dejian's people. you cant even be a student at that school without becoming vegetarian....

NB but this is just one school, the majority do not stipulate that you have to be vegetarian, even though they only give you vegetarian food at the school. This is probably why Shaolin are predominantly vegetarian. 50 weeks a year on a vegetarian diet. I find it very difficult to eat a chinese diet (with the chinese amount of meat in it) and then go into Beijing for a Steak dinner... it takes me out for 2 days.

i just see vegetarianism as such a normal part of life to them. this may be nowadays, but its an even bigger choice now. i think the wuseng were allowed to be exempted from these specific vows. not that they were required to eat meat and drink wine. just that the emperor no longer wanted them to be under such rules. give them more freedom and make better warriors out of them... more useful as a soldier monk than a praying monk with so many rules.

Yup nobody ever requires anyone to eat anything in China. Not that I've seen anyway... think its because food = foundation of chinese medicine to the Chinese.

I think your observations are good LFJ, on the otherhand I think your assumptions are frequently not sound (IMHO). I also indulge in a lot of projections. I really apprecite it when people draw me up, and point out that some of those projections are not safe. Otherwise you do wind up wasting a lot of time going down blind alleys.

The truth is out there somewhere....

Agent Chicken

PS. Whilst I'm here

Biology Class - Revision

Young Male Cockeral
Young Female Chick
Adult Male Cock
Adult Female Chicken

How far away are we from nature? I can't believe that if we went back 50 years that a single child would not know this!

[doc]

Wuseng? Performers? Students? Monks?

Some of these guys haven't the slightest idea of any concepts or ideas of Buddhism. They're just students at a gong fu school, who occasionally, get to put on orange robes and do performances, either in China or in other countries. They're referred to as "monks" or "wuseng"; some have taken vows, some have actually lived in the temple, some have strong ties to Buddhism and the Buddhist monks in Shaolin.

And some have not.

Herein lies the problem.

Your perceptions of some of these guys are far different than what the reality is. And because it is difficult for you to ascertain the truth, as there are no records kept, anybody coming out of China with orange robes can pretend to be whatever he wants to be. And you will all believe it.

And some of you have.


OH, and if Chicken was a small adult female, would she be a chicklet?

[LFJ]

doc-

regardless of what goes on nowadays, a wuseng is ordained with five precepts with some exceptions.

no matter who is what. thats what a wuseng is. the rest is just politics.

for all those people, they just have to find their own truths. but my point was to get to the bottom of the levels and precepts taken in shaolin, traditionally or ideally. which, at least to some degree, i have.

i was once given the best advice i've ever heard concerning shaolin. that was "its best to focus on your studies and avoid internal shaolin politics."

so i try to learn about shaolin traditional culture and uphold its respect. i dont care much about what specific people have said or done or the vows they personally have taken. unless of course, they have kids, eat meat, and drink wine yet try to pass themselves off as a fully ordained heshang.

shi yanming, when i met him, referred to himself as a wuseng. which means he is considered a layman and can do these things. but in all the documentaries with him and even in his book he doesnt talk about wuseng. he always explains the meaning of the chinese word heshang and then continues talking about himself. though he never actually makes the connection, if you didnt know better you'd think he was calling himself a heshang. thats why many other buddhists not associated with shaolin see him as a shameless man. and i can see why.

now i have to reply to chicken nugglet...

[LFJ]

chicken nugglet-

there were both observations and assumptions. the observations were from modern times. the assumptions were those modern observations placed on the events of the past.

who can know for sure what went on and how many of which specific people did what way back when?

but from what i have seen, china has changed a lot- drastically and rapidly. but many of the traditional values such as confucian morals have always been ingrained and havent died out or been changed much now for ages.

so i dont think its too far fetched to place some modern observations on past events in china- especially those observations of traditional culture in modern times. even though it still qualifies as assumption.

and on the subject of vegetarianism, not too long ago i too was a meat eater. i didnt know why. i just ate it. now i know why. because i wasnt living mindfully back then. and nowadays even if i remember the deliciousness of some meat products i realize it is attachment to taste, feeding on a product of death for no other reason than that i enjoyed the taste. but being ignorant of this i just did whatever. now i realize the reason i did it and the reason i gave it up, and there's simply no way i could touch it again.

i believe if you do something (mindfully) and fully comprehend why you do it it will stick a lot more firmly to either give it up or keep it up. i'm trying to extend this to other parts of my life now.

[doc]

for all those people, they just have to find their own truths. but my point was to get to the bottom of the levels and precepts taken in shaolin, traditionally or ideally. which, at least to some degree, i have.

i

And you've done a superb job.

I'm going to try to copy that post and put it in it's own thread, as it does not deserve to be buried within this one. For the sake of others who may be coming here to read.

Thanks for providing that information. Great job.

[doc]

So I say again...the martial monks of shaolin are not religious ordained monks.

Interesting SSM.

The use of the term "monk", has apparently been bastardized, hasn't it? Herein lies the other problem.

[LFJ]

thank you, doc!

actually i'm talking to the person who gave me this information who is a monk in china from baimasi, currently at fengxuesi, in henan. we will try to write an article on the levels and precepts within shaolin (where he was also accepted) along with historical details and such.

i told him this information is simply not available online where there are many people who want to learn from a distance. and even many shaolin sujiadizi that i know do not even know this information.

so it would be a wonderful contribution to the internet and to all people so shaolin traditional culture will be known. there are many who dont understand shaolin and so engage in insulting debates which damages the reputation of shaolin. or they simply see shaolin as a joke. (the majority of the buddhist world, i'd say)

if this information is made known, then shaolin traditional culture will be more understood and the respect will be upheld.

when it comes to the "real or fake" debate we can have some place to look at this problem. and understand the tradition and who is or isnt upholding it.

i think it would be good for all and especially shaolin traditional culture. it may take some time but we'll put something together to have published online.