Authenticity of monks

[master-lu]

Songshan monk- Your school! I know you're not a student of yan mings! I asked what they say in YOUR school never said it was the same as USAST but presumed your master must sureliy know yan ming etc etc as us monks are all brothers until we stab each other in the back for "benjamins" "special water" and "secret qi gong" with female students.
As usual you misinterpret I know you do that on purpose. You don't want to answer even these simple questions you would rather act up and think you're funny- well you are pretty funny.
What care you of my so called crusade? I just want to know what people are saying about this in your school- but you've already answered it. By saying that, I presume they are saying similar things as the critics here and you don't want to add on to the pile of shit that's really more and more starting to look like a mountain. Sadly it looks like Song mountain turned into a shan of crap.
You could have just told me what they say about these things it could have been some positive information contributing to the broader picture. Well.
You ask of IC's loyalty, what is that to you? Are you on the same master worship track as some of the others? What do you mean by this question? It's interesting because many out there in the gong fu world engaage in som serious master worshiping wich looks very sectarian.

[baiwanxi]

Back to the question asked on the last page.....
ARHAT, are you a student of USAST ? And if so, are people still talking about IC and what is the talk about ? I mean, how do students see him ? Anti-christ or unsatisfied customer ?

And do people there like John Mayer ? That is, in New York in general ?
Sorry, you don't have to answer that last one. I just happen to be listening to him.

[LFJ]

arhat is yanming's right hand disciple, hengfa. pay attention. lol

i doubt they are still talking about iron-c. there are far more important things to do. and if they have any opinion it would probably be no different than what yanming says. he just doesnt understand himself. but from what i've heard, he's welcome to come back anytime he is ready to understand himself and accept the fact and make things right with yanming. but i dont see that happening...

besides, even if iron-c fixed all of his problems and came to understand himself i think he'd still have a problem with yanming, for yanming. but yanming is always right even if or when he's wrong. thats just the way it is. you gotta go through the hoops to reach this level.

[Iron Cross]

I really hope they are not still talking about me... that would be rather creepy. i think youll find when it comes to the opinions of USAST disciples they are near copies of yan mings own views.

They use the "You dont understand yourself" line as an excuse or explinaiton for basically everything. If you hurt yourself in class, you didnt understand yourself. Girlfriend dumps you, you didnt understand yourself. Fired from your job, didnt understand yourself. hit by a car, didnt understand yourself. got cancer, didnt understand yourself. struck by lightning.... and so on and so forth...

Doesnt matter what you say or do they will always tell you you ahve to fall in line with whatever yan ming says or believes. the only way i could ever go back if for some insane reason i wanted to would be to admit i was always wrong and the only hope for my salvation is within USAST and with yan ming. then there would no doubt be a long "probation" period and no doubt highly inflated fees to give me the "privelage" to return.

In case your wondeirng I'm not actually making any of this stuff up. A friend of mine was kicked out and asked to come back he was told he had to then pay $200 a month for a period of yan mings choosing... Another friend was kicked out and tried to remain close to the people there but was openly shunned by yan ming. This guy was a disciple of yan ming and asked if he could go to the enxt ceremony to support his friends that were taking the vow. yan ming told him no...

The guy is flat out insane.. I could name half a dozen people as devoted and many even more devoted than i was at my shaolin prime that have just recently been kicked out or left and broken all contact with yan ming for the very reasons ive mentioned here. A good friend of mine used to be as big of a yan ming defender as arhat... this guy was the poster child for the Amituofo Nerd Movement.... he gave his life to this guy... for reasons i wont go into he now has lsot all respect for yan ming and rather hates him. telling me he would never step foot in the USAST again and cant wait until "yan mings bullshit empire comes crashing down" Even i was shocked when this happened... It would be the same as if tomorrow arhat started a thread putting yan ming and usast down.. how many of us here would be shocked.

[doc]

Again, you might want to read this: http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2268

[master-lu]

Hey! I would be shocked!!! But I think it can and will happen sooner or later just wait and see. Please tell us what happened between that guy and Yan ming it's super interesting. Did he try to "qi gong" him or something?
Was any special water involved?
people that fit the discription you give of yan ming tend to change worhipers every now and then I have seen this before. There is always a new devoted follower to take Arhats place and so shall it be in time- Just wait and see- you have it here in writing- shi yan lu has forseen it!

[arhat]

In short, when I say a precept is ridiculous, what I mean are some of them are obviously dated, nobody could truly follow all of them all of the time- yet we do not see these monks who effectively and practically pick and choose in their day to day- and this is what I meant by one day you will learn some interesting things- because the more time you spend with various monastics the less this shit matters, yet these guys don't get dragged through the muck and shit- and that there is no need to carrry around a hammer and set of nails once your home is built. When I say you will have to jump through the hoops yourself, what I mean is that in fact, the point is to realize your home is already built. Ch'an is an intuitive process to achieve the ineffable.

Again, Buddha himself only reluctantly allowed his individualized instructions to be codified. He kept his family with him. So bearing that fact in mind, I will take the precepts as they have come down to us with a grain of salt. Same way I now view celibacy in the Catholic Church. The institution tells one thing, but the reality and context provide a fuller understanding. Coming up in the Long Island Hardcore scene and straight edge I can understand why some of the precepts were adopted, and why some of them are not necessary for everyone. They are just supposed to be tools. Eventually you just come to realize things and build yourself up to handle your own shit. I do not believe in hungry ghosts, or that I should wear gravesclothes, or clothes of one color, certain hand lengths, that can not be touched by a woman- or that women somehow need another 250 rules. IF you want to believe that, feel free. If YOU want to believe you need to be reborn in a gem crusted world with warbling birds in order to be free of distraction and closer to enlightenment, be my guest. I am not preaching on the corner my own personal doctrine, nor telling anyone or trying to convince them that I know "the" way, that people should listen to me, or anything like that at all. What I will do is engage your beliefs if you present them for engagement and if I find them faulty I don't have a problem telling you or why.

Baiwanxi- nobody I know of at the USAST really talks about IC, this forum, or what have you. Nobody really talked about him then, nor now, except maybe someone will ask, hey how is Yi doing, anyone hear from him or some other banality. Yi chose to take his issuess publicly, then for whatever reason felt like people were whispering in SYM's ear about him and what he was saying. Now he makes it sound like he was confiding in some trusted brothers confidence and was ratted out, meanwhile it was all over the internet. The shit was out there for anyone to see and in fact when some people tried to reach out to him and say listen maybe this should be something you should keep off public forums as it seems kind of private, he would blow up, talk about how he knew what he was doing, he was just "questioning" if you ever want to see speciious statements posed as questions you could make a case study out of this kid, and was really just implementing his intelligence training to sit back and play with people.

People did notice his questions became statements of fact which he would twist completely out of proportion, and then his dying thing, which is covered in another thread. An example now is he mentions someone being asked to pay 200 bucks, but what is the back story. If you really belive that out of the blue, SYM would come to a student and say, HEY, now you must pay me 200 bucks a month to train here, well, then enjoy yourself, you are a whack job and should subscribe to World Weekly News. Actually I think he is referring to someone who was training for free, and was then asked to start paying, and to make up for some of the months that they trained for free. Mostly he lost a lot of respect that people had for him because after you keep manufacturing Squirrels- half truths completely overblown- well, you start to lack credibility.

Obviously I train with SYM at USAST, I wouldn't say I am his "right hand" disciple, but what I can say is that any time I have had a problem with him I solve it face to face and we come to an understanding, the way family should solve their problems. You would NEVER find any such thread posted by me as found here. IF I ever did leave, you can trust that I would not bleat my way through internet forums about it with all the one sided details. My vows were taken first and foremost by me in full awareness of what they were and what they entailed and are not predicated on the behaviour of others to qualify them.

I sincerely doubt I will be looking back in this thread, but anyone who wants to can feel free to PM me.

[Hippo Foo]

Yes we are all interested Iron Cross... I feel like a group of adulteens gossiping about some girl/boy in the school yard.... USAST is like being in a bad relationship with a boyfriend who is incredibly possessive and domineering... You feel good cause you got the boy, but he treats you like crap... but your all deer in headlights over him cause he is the "hot" boy in the school. damn.... In other words, USAST students are whipped...



I've heard a handful of stories myself of friends who went there and got jilted pretty bad. There are a bunch of reasons why people go there. Some for the Martial Arts, who realize there isn't much to learn after 3-4 years. Some who get into the devotion part tend to be those who were going through some sort of emotional problem in their life, and YM was there to lift them up. Which I think is great. Sooner or later, when the emotional problem goes away, the student will begin to see more of the truth that goes on. And they eventually move on. Generally I think the students who have been there for 5+ years are those who hardly go to class anyway. To be honest from experience training there, I almost never saw Arhat train.... so reasons for him to be there, I am not exactly sure. I think he enjoys the "spiritual" aspects of the school and not really the martial ones....

[Iron Cross]

All very good points Foo... I remember after I left I used to use the analogy to people that its like a disfunctional or abusive relationship. When your in the relationship people tell you to get out and its no good for you, though you jsut tell them you dont understand our love... doesnt that sound familiar.

Arhat seems to think i was paranoid that people were telling yan ming things behind my back and reporting to him what i was saying online or to them in person. There is a very good reason why i thought that....... THEY WERE! yan ming told me himself. he told me to my face directly he had heard what i had been saying about him from other people... i found it sad none of them had balls enough to come talk to me directly about it... that goes for who ever was talking to yan ming and yan ming himself... I have some ideas about who might have been saying things but no real proof... not like i care anymore seeing as i dont talk to anyone there anymore...

In terms of my friends story.. I had promised him i wouldnt talk about it to others.. he and I were always close and he felt he could talk to me about. I respect his desire to keep it private... Myself I have no aspirations of privacy I'll talk publically about all the dirt I saw go down there...

use your imaginations though... how bad an event would it have to be to cause an Arhat clone to transform into an Iron Cross clone...

[Iron Cross]

But you know it's interesting. Arhat said if something bad happened to him he would never put anything up publically like this. Well to be honest thats kinda the reason I felt the desire to say these things publically. Otherwise the only side of USAST we would all see is the ine sided propoganda they would all want us to see. Thats some bullshit there too in my opinion.

[LFJ]

In short, when I say a precept is ridiculous, what I mean are some of them are obviously dated, nobody could truly follow all of them all of the time- yet we do not see these monks who effectively and practically pick and choose in their day to day- and this is what I meant by one day you will learn some interesting things-

not understanding the reasons behind certain rules does not make them useless, nor does their seemingly dated appearance make them outdated. certainly every bhikshu or bhikshuni breaks the many minor rules. they are ordained not because they are perfect but because they are training their minds and bodies. but if they have respect for the rules, acknowledge their fault, and continue upholding their vows they will greatly benefit from such training of the mind and body. those who wish to "pick and choose effectively" but ineffectively and knowingly drop other rules have not upheld their vows and are considered "shameless" and "wicked" by the scriptures. ordination is apparently not for this type of person and they are much better off sticking with the five lay precepts as members of the laity.

there is no need to carrry around a hammer and set of nails once your home is built. When I say you will have to jump through the hoops yourself, what I mean is that in fact, the point is to realize your home is already built. Ch'an is an intuitive process to achieve the ineffable.

tools are set down when the work is done. who's work is done besides the buddhas? the mistake is looking at the rules as tools to build a home. but it is common knowledge among buddhists that we all share this same buddha nature. the tools are obviously not for that. the rules are the tools used to break down defilements that distort perception and realize this home that is already built.

I do not believe in hungry ghosts, or that I should wear gravesclothes, or clothes of one color, certain hand lengths, that can not be touched by a woman- or that women somehow need another 250 rules.

hungry ghosts are described in methaphor and they are a part of the teaching of various realms of rebirth taught by the buddha. denying rebirth is denying the cause, aim, and method that defines buddhism as a path. without rebirth the basis of all buddhist philosophy cannot exist. certainly you may still have concepts such as compassion, loving-kindness and other various ideals. but those are not necessarily religious nor define anyone one path more than another.

and of course you need not wear any of those because you are not ordained. and you need not worry about rules for bhikshunis because you are not an ordained woman.

in fact, the pratimoksha precepts are for the ordained. members of the laity including yourself and shi yanming need not be bothered by the rules. all you need to be concerned with is the good ol' five lay precepts. learning the pratimoksha is to understand the training of the bhikshus and bhikshunis who provide us with dharma instruction, and how to behave toward them. (for example, what makes a proper gift)

an opinion on whether some rules should be dropped or not is a decision concerning the ordained sangha- which have not changed for 2600 years. any lay member who has a differing opinion really need not bother themselves with things unconcerning their own path, unless the were considering ordination.

If YOU want to believe you need to be reborn in a gem crusted world with warbling birds in order to be free of distraction and closer to enlightenment, be my guest.

no practitioner of pureland buddhism believes this.

a deeper learning into pureland buddhism would clearly show that the cause, aim, and method are exactly the same as any other mahayana buddhist path, including chan. the only difference is the method of practice.

[master-lu]

Hippo foo! I feel the same way you discribed it just the way I would
Ah it's funny.
Iron Cross I think it was the best thing you could do to go public with your experiances. you owe it to the gong fu world. Others must know these things and I am not saying that they must all think like you or that my gong fu brother Yan ming is a bad person etc but theymust be given a chance to learn what so many out there have experianced be it bad or whatever in contrast to all the propaganda. "No pomp no bullshit no grandmaster worship" thats what makes this site interesting- you get the realness in another type of way. Thats good.
There is somehing interesting in the real followers of these hustler masters. Just like one of you guys said they are in need of this type of "family" and sadly many get used in a bad way. I have seen this. Had i not been a headstrong person I could have been just another Iron cross clone. I am not since I told the master to f... off since we had agreements on paper that he all of a sudden felt he didnt need to respect. Iron cross when you spoke to yan ming- did he look surprised when you did not swallow his shit?My master even studdered when I in the middle of training said Hell no I am not doing this! He thougt he was god or something being questioned is un acceptable to these type of people. He felt he did not need to explain anything at all but I insisted since we had a deal. He even tryed yelling at me to scare me but I didnt care I told him to f.. off and samething to other students trying to intervene on his behalf- If they want anthing i oppenly challenge anyone of you here i said and they all shut up. Others are not like that, they should not have to be, others do as they are told wich is good but when they get told to do stupid things the wrong way shit will always happen thats why the gong fu world as long as it's like this will continue to produce Iron crosses out of Arhats, chickens and songshanmonks. Shaolin will create more Shi yan-Lu's out of master-lu's who will drink "special water" love "benjamin" and engage in "secret qi gong".
Iron cross your coming forward with this is a tribute to all those kids out there with loyalty and devotion in their hearts, who risk being abused or already are abused or have been- don't you ever stop telling your truth- you owe it to the gong fu world which as been severily brutalised by these hustler masters.
People love the realness. When I visit my old school the youngsters all gather around me begging me to teach them something new, they know I know gong fu and I dont act mystical about applications etc I show them something that they can use and practise every time real gong fu is great- no one can deny it after seing it. So by ceeping it real sure some will hate you, some will love you but all can respect you because by ceeping it real you respect yourself and sure as hell "understand your self" to quote my brother yan ming.
/secret qi gong master of stockholm shaolin temple shi yan lu

[Iron Cross]

Others must know these things and I am not saying that they must all think like you or that my gong fu brother Yan ming is a bad person etc but theymust be given a chance to learn what so many out there have experianced be it bad or whatever in contrast to all the propaganda.

Exactly!! A point that arhat seems to ahve missed completely. I just try to say it like it is according to me point of view. Some may agree with me and others may not. It makes no difference to me, but at elast a different point of view was seen.

Yan Ming wasnt shocked when i went to talk to him in fact he was rather mad. Mad in the way a little kid gets mad when you tell him there is no santa claus.

First he was mad I didnt make an appointment to talk to him, then he was mad I even came to talk to him. I found it funny Arhat wrote if there is ever a problem he jsut goes and talks to yan ming. Well I went to do that and he got mad at me for it. He then keept trying to sidestep my whole heat stroke thing whenever i brought it up and instead focus on how I wasnt happy enough for him that he was becoming so famous and well known. I tried to bring up the pointlessness of having to now wear color coordinated robes to differnet classes citing we are training so what does it matter what we wear? He side stepped that one and instead scolded me for not attending his book signing a few weeks earlier.

Everytime I disagreed with him or said something contradictory or called him out onone of his bullshit new rules or practices he would get real mad. I could jsut look at his face and tell he was trying to remain calm. Example:

He made a new rule requiring us to now wear color coordinated robes to differnet level classes. A rule that wouldput a nice penny in his pocket as most people had to buy new robes. I was the only one that said this is stupid we are just training what does it matter? He told me everyonehas to do it even himself. I quickly pointed out that the night I passed out everyone in level 2 was wearing orange except him. In fact he was wearing blue pants and a tank top. His face got a little red on that one. He actually said nothing and didnt even answer my question. I laughed and just shook my head.

Yan ming wasnt really surprised, but instead jsut made I didnt swallow his shit. Also that I would have the nerve to go talk to him and call him out on his shit.

[doc]

In short, when I say a precept is ridiculous, what I mean are some of them are obviously dated.... I do not believe in hungry ghosts, or that I should wear gravesclothes, or clothes of one color,

About sixty million Thai's do believe in hungry ghosts. Just because your beloved YM is leading you in certain directions about Buddhism, doesn't mean he's correct. I'm truly entertained that this Henan wushu team member has gone this far in convincing the world of what he has. Absolutely amazing. And you continue to "learn" from him.

You do not believe of wearing clothes of one color, lol. How many hundreds of millions of Chinese believe in wearing a certain color of clothing during certain times of the year...

You have a "Buddhist teacher" who apparently changes things to fit his understanding, and lifestyle. And you follow blindly. I warned you a long time ago; one day, you will find yourself embarassed. You continue to go down the veritable garden path....

[Iron Cross]

Yes you do arhat... You believe you should wear orange robes to level 2 classes and blue robes to level 1 classes...