Shi Yan Ming????

[Iron Cross]

The main reasons i see for people to stay there is they like the social atmosphere, like to hang out and drink, like to party, like to sweat alot, interestingly enough like getting yelled at all the time, like "being part of something" (this would probably be the biggest reason), and finally Id say they THINK they are learning authentic shaolin martial arts.

I've never seen a serious well educated martial artist train there. that is to say someone that knows a great deal about various martial arts styles, teachers, techniques and so on. I've seen a whole bunch of them join the school and promptly quit a month or so later. Usually what happens to beginners that wish to actually learn something is they will train hard until level 2 then learn basically everything there then get bored and either leave or get kicked out. I was thinking about quitting myself before i was kicked out for nearly dying from their incompetence. If that makes any sense.

certain reasons can trump other ones too in fact. Such as someone that wants to seriously learn martial arts that has trained hard and is now bored with the place and wants to leave will have this desire over ruled by his greater desire for the social network and need to belong to something. I've seen this on a few occasions. Mostly these people are constantly torn between wanting to go elsewhere to learn and what they feel is their obligation to stay.

Then there are the folks who started out wanting to learn martial arts and instead used the place for a social network/party spot/drinking spot/hook up spot. Which basically means the place has filled every facet of their lives leaving room for not much else. The desire to learn martial arts or anything else for that matter is then replaced with this creepy cult like obsession with yan ming and his school. These are the folks that will pay tuition and still volunteer many many hours a week cleaning, teaching classes, answering phones, stocking inventory, and handling administrative duties even when it conflicts with school or work responsibilities. They will tell themselves they are "supporting the temple" when in reality they are trying to constantly one up one another to gain favor and praise from yan ming.

WEll its late and thats all i can think of for the moment. Maybe some more will come to me tomorrow...

[doc]

Actually before students join Yan Ming school they sign a waiver saying that USA Shaolin Temple is not responsible for any injuries caused by the student or within class. HOWEVER, according to US state law (sort of like a good samaritan law), Yan Ming is required to provide medical service to the individual to his ability until a qualified medical physician or someone who has a higher ability than he does arrives to take over from there.

The waiver generally means nothing. They don't offer a lot of protection; if there is negligence, than the waiver is useless.

Yan Ming was not a "caretaker", and, was not responsible for providing medical service. He is not a medical professional. A citizen does not have to offer assistance to an individual requiring health care. Period.

However, NEGLIGENCE could have easily been a factor in this case. When someone is in need of health care, and the owner of the facility takes it upon himself to make a medical diagnosis, and dictatet the medical care that the injured person should receive, while disregarding the availability professional medical help, that is negligence. Especially if that individual has nothing more than a grammar school education, if that. A physician who did the same, could be sued for negligence in that action.

Lots to chew through in this thread. Again, I suggest you read my thread on "Cults". And I find it comical that people place these "warriors" on pedestals. See them for what they are.

[Hippo Foo]

Mmm I meant medical in its rudimentary form... like if someone is bleeding, you wrap the wound. I guess medical assumes a profession but what I meant is to provide services to his ability. Maybe those services may not be medical.

Basically what Iron Cross is right about why people have infactuated with Yan Ming. If you know nothing about Shaolin Kung Fu, its very easy to be attracted to the school because it is marketed very well. I would say 100% of the people who go to that school and stay for a long period of time, more than 1 year, know nothing bout Shaolin Kung Fu. If you know nothing, how will know if its a good place or not? You don't so you go on how well its marketed.

Here is just a few things that I thought of that would inspire you to just atleast TRY a class:

1. As soon as you come in, you see a wall full of Yan Ming and celebrities like Jackie Chan or Jet Li. You think to yourself "WOW, this guy must be good because he has pictures of himself with those superstars. "

2. Everyone is wearing a Shaolin monk robe. You think this must be authentic because I've seen these uniforms in the movie.

3. Everyone is kicking like they are in the military bootcamp. You think the training is hardcore like in 36 Chambers of Shaolin.

4. Yan Ming is charismatic and super confident. People are attracted to confidences. You think he must know his shit.

That being said of course there are other reason why people stay. Mainly those tht Iron Cross mentions. Also those that are talk about in this post on this Shaolin blog.

http://kungfudorksunite.blogspot.com...irl-power.html

[doc]

Greenwich Village
This Monk Is a Boldface Name
By PETER RITTER

As a young monk in the legendary Shaolin Temple in China, Sifu Shi Yan Ming learned to break rocks with his skull, deflect blades with his skin, sleep while hanging upside down from a tree branch, and dangle a 50-pound weight from his scrotum.

He was thus ideally prepared for the rigors of Manhattan living.

Since opening the U.S.A. Shaolin Temple in Greenwich Village in 1996, Yan Ming has given the 1,500-year-old martial order of Shaolin an American makeover, attracting numerous celebrity disciples and writing a workout book. With plans to expand the franchise, Yan Ming is having a party on Saturday to raise money for a new, larger temple in upstate New York.

"I want to bring all the traditions and training of Shaolin into the 21st century," Yan Ming, who is 42, said one afternoon before leading a class of orange-uniformed followers through a grueling kung fu workout of leaps, punches and whirling-dervish kicks.

An expansive man with a shaved head and a smile as quick as his fists, Yan Ming has taken to his role as Shaolin's leading advocate with gusto. He greets his students by yelling "Merry Christmas!" "I am the most handsome monk in the world," he likes to say. "I want everybody to be like so-good-looking Sifu."

The walls of the U.S.A. Shaolin Temple, which occupies a high-ceilinged loft in a nondescript building on Lower Broadway, are covered with photos of Yan Ming with his many famous admirers.

He has trained the actors Wesley Snipes, Rosie Perez and Bokeem Woodbine. RZA, a member of the Wu-Tang Clan, whose affection for kung fu movies is well documented, calls Yan Ming "master." Another friend, the movie director Jim Jarmusch, gave the monk a small part in his 1999 film, "Ghost Dog."

"Lots of fun," Yan Ming said of his screen debut. "They said, 'Like this, like that.' I said, 'No problem.' "

Yan Ming, who defected to the United States in 1992 while performing with a troupe of Shaolin kung fu experts, is hardly a typical Buddhist warrior monk. He eats meat, for instance, and he enjoys Champagne, which he calls "very special French water."

Yan Ming, who has two children with his partner, Sophia Chang, a music promoter and the temple's manager, also disregards the monk's traditional vow of celibacy. "I'm too handsome for that," he explained.

Yan Ming said he decided to leave Shaolin in part because he felt stifled by the monastery's strictures. "In the temple," he said, "monks have 250 rules. Two hundred fifty! Just think of that! You cannot drink. You cannot eat spices. You cannot drink bottled water. You cannot look at a woman. That's just crazy. It's the 21st century, you know?

"I had American dreams," he added. "In China, there are too many limitations. Here, you can do a lot of things if you have the ability. You can express yourself. That's why everybody loves the United States."

If Yan Ming's lifestyle raises eyebrows among more conservative monks, his students speak of him with the reverence reserved for a sage. Nor do Shaolin's American adherents seem bothered by Yan Ming's celebrity cachet. After kung fu class, a student approached the monk and handed him a screenplay titled "Bionic Monk."

"Very good," Yan Ming said, beaming.

Mr Ritter really needs to look at what happened with his colleague, Judith Miller, from the NY Times.

As she discovered, he needs schooling with respect to "checking his sources"...

[jackwolf]

WHy I am at USAST??????/

Dear Friends,

I train in Gong Fu Shaolin style because it has been the best workout and most interesting that I have ever had the pleasure to do. I use Traditional Chinese Medicine to keep healthy, I have a doctor and all, and therefore it makes sense to do Gong Fu as a workout. It has increased my strength, flexibility, stamina, and mental resolve and power. I am at the USAST because of many reasons, practical and aesthetic.
Practical- It is convenient there are classes every day, and it is located centrally. It is cheap, 100 dollars a month and hou can go as much as you want. It is hard to find a gym at that price and gyms are boring and superficial. I read the people complaining about how he overcharges for uniforms and other accessories, but I think he tries to make up for losses by making money off of things like uniforms, shoes. I know that he gives alot of tuition breaks to financially strained students. Besides his place is the best around, huge, well cleaned, well decorated and warm in atmosphere. USAST is also fun the people are really into their practice, and supportive, at least this is how they have been to me. There is a friendly atmosphere, some people get a bit cultish about their place there but I think that is more about them as people than anything promoted by Yan Ming. I like his moves, they are challenging but not impossibly complex and fun to learn. I look at them as entertaining as well.
Yan Ming is a complex guy, he is without a doubt well trained and great at the Gong Fu. He has been featured many times in Kung Fu magazine by editor Gene Ching. He appears many times in photos of the more prominent fighting monks at the Shaolin Temple in the 1980's . I really don;t care why he left only he knows that anyway, or that he does not live a typical Shaolin lifestyle, a lot of masters in many fields are like this. I am an artist so I should know. He has always been nice to me and I have learned alot of positive things from him. He is a renegade no doubt but I tend to like such personalities.



Jackwolf

[Iron Cross]

I'm the original renegade and you don't like me. What gives????

[master-lu]

chills

Chicken your frequent use of the word "warriors" to describe those insane monks, it gives me the chills man you really admire them dont you? Of course you are treated very well any female foreigner would be- you are a walking talking passport, if he values his citizenship he'll take good care of you. most so called monks and so called gong fu masters in sweden got in by marrying some swedish student.
I think it's really an incredible thing, if read how some of you go out of your way to explain and rationalise the actions of basically crazy people. As i've said a thousand times- they are just as crazy as I am and I am just as much a monk as they are. Hell nowadays i dont even drink as muh as many of them do but if I had a school i would surely try to bone every good looking female student!!! I think i love Yan ming we should party together!

[Iron Cross]

I agree Lu it does boggle my mind too. If it was any other random person acting like this we wouldnt be having this conversation because everyone would probably agree he was an egotistical schmuck. But, since they are "holy warrior monks of lord buddha" they get a pass. Give me a break. It simply blows my mind the leeway people are given as soon as they identify themselves as a "religious" or "holy" man.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Isn't the whole point Ironcross that ppl of a particular faith have a alternative way ??

At which point exactly would you like to control the leeway given to them to pursue that do you think??

[master-lu]

come on man!!! religion is no valid excuse behave like any damn way you want. the problem lies with the idiots out ther tolerating idiotic behaviour from other idiots on the ground that they are religious. I dont care what religion- An Idiot is an Idiot and his behaviour should not be accepted. So my drinking, whoring and hustling people is okay beacause i claim it to be my religious practice? hustling is hustling, killing is killing no matter what religion!

[Iron Cross]

Damn right Lu! I suggest you read Richard Dawkins The God Delusion sometime. He does a good job of outlining this problem.

[doc]

Well, let's not assign this whole concept of deification to the Yanming gang. Granted, the behavior exhibited can be extreme to the point of cult like, but, you really find this in almost every martial arts school that you go to. I don't think that it's solely the instructor's fault. I think that the people that get drawn to these guys, tend to have some sort of deficiency in their lives, which makes them deify these martial artists. Martial artists, who in most cases, have a lower educational and otherwise status than the students that adore them.

The whole thing would make an interesting book. I'm baffled by the behavior exhibited by some of these martial arts students sometimes.

[master-lu]

Doc you're absolutely right, and we talked about this before. I too have seen several martial arts schools that function like sects, i've never met Yan ming but or his students but i have seen the very same type of people here. I agree that there is something missing in the lives of the students and they rais their master to the skies. In one school i know the chinese teacher who is a very humble man, battles this problem all the time. His students have a very unrealistic view of things and seek mystery in gongfu and in him as an exotic chinese master. He himself maintains that he is an ordinary man and that knowing gongfu or being chinese does not make you a special person at all. he stresses serious training in applications and strength because without it you can't win a fight, this sounds very sound and logic to me and some others but most of his students find it surprising and turn a deaf ear tp that part. They want him to be their leader and spiritual guide. They want gongfu to be magical and soft. They think it will work in a real situation even if they only do forms and meditation wich are the sexy exotic parts of gongfu training. In this particular school- it is very obvious that the sect mentality is not the doing of a sectist teacher but solely the product of sectist students who choose to worship their master. In USAST it's both. The lambs need a shepherd and the shepherd needs the lambs.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Well, let's not assign this whole concept of deification to the Yanming gang. Granted, the behavior exhibited can be extreme to the point of cult like, but, you really find this in almost every martial arts school that you go to. I don't think that it's solely the instructor's fault. I think that the people that get drawn to these guys, tend to have some sort of deficiency in their lives, which makes them deify these martial artists. Martial artists, who in most cases, have a lower educational and otherwise status than the students that adore them.

The whole thing would make an interesting book. I'm baffled by the behavior exhibited by some of these martial arts students sometimes.

see this kind of comment, just like this from hvillarruel


[quote]
Well Doc, it will be good to have him here in America.

And I perfectly understand the Xingwei thing. Some people doesn't know what to do with the freedom and help they have, so they destroy their lives.

Someone who i admire so much said to me: " they are like SOME of those Olympic athletes, excellent at sport, but with nothing up there"

Well, life has to continue, and you have a friends reunion to enjoy.....and a beautiful girlfriend at Thailand, i suppose.
[end quote]

despite the same condition of how wushu got through the C.R., relies on a diminished capacity pretext. Apparently that has a place . Still on topic with this thread though, I dont know if deification is the most correct term for it, but because of the ambiguous nature of chan and individual hermenuetic relative to that, it all too easy picking to write it off that way.
Maybe the fact that ShiDeyang, in his last public address scroll called for support of the academic world, is for the exact reason that it is education and credibilty from that that sets us free in this day.
Maybe that too is why the U.N. insists laws and arms to protect ppl from those types of opinions in any officially credibile status, wherein as a result of buying into that, the best one could hope for is a diminished capacity ruling and whatever mental health action might be enforced on ppl of that subsequent.
Clearly and officially unacceptable when pressed in issue.



I 've been busy spending time recently, over the past 12 mths or so exploring the bodybuilding industry. There are also many taboo that are associated with ppl , and particularly women , and grossly due to the contraversy of their steriod use and hormone supplementation which suppresses natural hormone systhesis and release and so on.
AS a result of the that, the best that they can come up with is that they are either of diminished functional capacity themselves, or alternatively are dehuman and or genderised as a whole breed of animal.

I think that is a reeally f*cking dangerous line of reason to sell.
Although on a short break atm ( @) ) I have been comparing measurements with champion fml body builders around the world.
Musculardevelopment.com is where I've most recently been doing that.
I am still around 100- 105 lbs ish tiny. It's no secret that I am small. I cop soo much online crap for exactly that. . but, I make no apologies for it nonetheless. WE take what we need and that's that. riight down, master lu to the beer and so on.

I also recently, coming into a master of elite performance sport and exercise science / physiology started prelim trials with bulking formulas and programs but by shaolin buddhist rules and tenets.
So .. after so many years of heavy volume, I started to blow up muscularly pretty quickly.
What I ended up with , doing this for only long enough to be convinced that i could use it toward heavier gains, was , still at that weight, biceps measuring the same as the pros who are 50 lbs + heavier than me aand on steroids to've acheived that , and some nice development elsewhere aswell. .
Soo.. my point is , that a. stereotyping here off bodybuilders into this dark image of alll it can be is innaccurate to say
and that b. just like with the martial artists being allegedly conferred some sort of deitism , I think rather that it is still as with everyone else an operational hermenuetic, based ON prajna and information to date.
..as opposed to some sort of state of mutuated damage.

I'm not sure if those terms are enough for some of you to understand what i'm saying with it, but I do agree with ShiDeyang. I've heard you say before Doc, that they are peasants and should be treated as such. We appreciate your hard nosed cynicism to bounce off, however, i think with enough academic support in our corner where it doesn't come back to a finding of dimished capacity, where western educated ppl can confirm and explain and lend credence to where these running MO's are not ppl acting outside of the scope of what they can be held accountable for, and where it is not to ignorant detriment of ppl in their charge or under a discipleship of theirs, and better because they have themselves experience in running the process successfully, that would do massive things toward revolutionising the further and broader integration of these methods into westen society and consiousness.

AS for master Lu's comments : unless ppl are breaking laws, then I'm going with yes. it certainly does seem to be a good enough reason to allow ppl to act out the hermenuetic they are living. If youu dont get it.. just like why in catholic churches even that children of 8 are given wine from first communion onward, despite legal drinking ages, just like why combatitive fighting isn't for the purpose of hurting anyone, I would have to suggest that that would probably be a fairy reasonable place to start meditating.

Blooming tianshi lotus.

[Iron Cross]

I think both doc and lu are right on this one. The people that turn these schools into the cult type places they are now are the ones who are lost in their own lives and NEED a spiritual leader. They need it so bad when they don't find one they will make one to follow. Though unfortunately for them there are far too many people who are willing and eager to take advantage of their vulnerability and proclaim they have all the answers if only they will follow them. Of course any rational person knows that these guys dont have any answers. In fact they are just as human as the rest of us. When you realize that, I mean ACTUALLY realize it, then you can see them for hat they are. Not enlightened masters that are on another plane of knowledge that we cannot understand so we must excuse their actions, but selfish, petty, greedy, ignorant fools that are even most lost and lonely in this world that the people the con into following them. I truly feel sorry for yan ming and others like him. When the classes end and his followers go home he must be truly miserable when he is alone with his thoughts.