New Chinese Cardinal: Beijing Must Change

[onesp1ng]

I've been thinking about this for a while and, although I think BL and I have come to similar conclusions, maybe I have a bit of a different twist on things.
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China’s growth was tremendous, it just wasn't influenced by the rest of the world, and they did little to incorporate newer, more efficient methods into "their world." Though actually astoundingly industrious, China essentially turned inward throughout the song period with very little interest in the direction of innovation. This happened because China's population became the largest in the world at this time, and basically they were forced to develop the most efficient "feeding system" as a result. Their primary focus, and all of their resources, ultimately rested on feeding people. Unfortunately, where others eventually turned to technology and innovation to increase agricultural productivity, China utilized very labor intensive methods to do the same job, and they've only recently attempted to change.

China was also pretty much devoid of an real education system. It was a tradition society. Trades and skills were not learned in the classroom as they are today, they were passed down from master to student. It was the family's duty to seek out and create these oppotunities by developing more and more "guanxi" in society. If you found a teacher, you learned what he or she passed down to you, which left little room for students to investigate things on their own. Of course if you had good "guanxi," you could find good jobs for people and bypass, if you will, the trade industry for positions in government.

So, a strong dependence on the past remained with little vision for the future. It seems to me, therefore, that the problem we see today in modern China is not necessarily related to communism, but is rather a combination of the effects from an increase in population during the song period, a stubborn ignorance concerning the benefits of innovation and trade sometime thereafter, as well as an almost non-exexistent educational system.....

[Inevitable]

hmm, very good theory, gonna have to agree with you there

[zachsan]

Obviously, China had problems prior to communism. The pattern seems to be that any country needs to have its fair share of problems before communism can take root there.

[zachsan]

That's an interesting thought, doc. The French certainly haven't shown an aversion to fiscally "progressive" policies in recent history. But becoming communist might get in the way of their ultimate ambition of being taken seriously.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I think in situations of communism, more than being associated with problems , I think it's more like being practical through autonomy...


and back to the religio/political side of the thread, I also think that's why things like buddhism with it's views on detetchment and confucism with it's stance on fighting for it and toughing through and even daoism and it's live natural and use the land and nature as your teacher of what u need systems are sooo important to what's kept these societies running .. and why although subjected to a certain suuurrface conformist expectation to abide and tolerate and operate under western belief systems where needs are different and different belief systems are what's going to get theem through, they're stiiil buddhist and daoist and whatever and are oppressed by the imposition the new neo-colonial capitaslism that is now dictating they way they are forced to operate should they want a shot...

It suks!!.. In the school Iwas at the Director was an Iranian Bahi ( sp??) extremist and just a fuk of an insulting woman to be near. She was horrendous - but she had a master of couselling and was the best they could do to advertise as having "western" ( rolleyes btw) mngmt and so with her dogma and degradation, their own practices were cut off at the trunk and made an undergrund vigil... and thaaat's part of what was so sad about it! They don't give a fuk!! They just want something that's going to keep them spirtually comfortable enough to get through... and 2 be able share it or not pretend 'd b nice 2...

they're not idiots, if u can further their position they'll tolerate.... but whotf saays it's of reeeal value to them otherwise??

No offence Zachsan, but have u even been to Asia?? .........

[zachsan]

No, and why would I take offense to that? I don't know much about the current affairs of Asia, really, which is why my comments have been about communism in general and not China specifically in this and other threads.

I'm still having a hard time understanding your writing (although it is much improved), so forgive me if I'm missing your point entirely, but all you're doing is talking about the reasons communism "fits" in China. I don't think anyone is challenging you on those, but you seem to be confusing the reasons why it is practical for the reasons why it is good.

[doc]

What you all say is very true. But, I don't think that the people who run China, or the Chinese, really care.

They will be the next superpower, within the next five years. The US will continue to self obliterate into a second rate country.

Regardless of what others may think, about their educational system, their business practices, their land aspirations, etc, it really doesn't matter. China's military will soon be the largest and the most technologically advanced in the world, a scary thought when you really think about it. And people are pissed off that our "idiot" Bush is helping India with nuclear weapons (people tend to forget that India is a serious counterweight to Chinese power in the region). And, because of China's shitty educational system, and it's overwhelming population of peasants who will work for two dollars a day, it is poised to become an economic powerhouse, more so than it currently is.

The days of US supremacy are over; our immigration issues have already seen to that. The Europeans (French, Germans, Swedes, Spain, etc) have already lost it, due to large immigrant influxes (mostly Islamic) which threaten to destroy their national identities. Russia will not be what it once was, and China is ready to step up and fill the void.

Why should they care about everyone else complaining about their "human rights" records? Or anything else about their behavior? It just doesn't matter. A new 800 pound gorilla is moving into the neighborhood, and he doesn't give a shit what everyone else thinks.

And with that bit of jaded cynical discourse, I'm going to go train.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Actually Doc, both the USA aand Aus 've juust trade-ousted india like a day or 2 ago. no nuc capicitating trade receipts for themm.......

Anyway Zachsan... how the hEeelll do u wanna stand up n claim u know what's good???!!??. ... u got a dissertation with a solid ending to that theory by any chance ????....

( ps... pls don't make me call u an idiot......)

BtL

[zachsan]

Okay.

When you do an internet search, and sites containing the word "freedom" are blocked out from the results, that's a bad thing. If you can't understand why that's a bad thing, I'm not going to sit here and try to explain it to you.

End dissertation.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

You're not huh? .. Okay but I think firstly you're neglecting the exposure they doo get to what freer countries are offering and secondly , what u wanna have em start a bloody riot over it?? You're just missing the entire point. Don't you think it's a lesser evil to just feed the ppl and haave things sticter at the expense of some other freedoms an just let these ppl have someone implent something on their behalf??
Don't forget history here. When Mao was in power before the initial kick of the CR it was the ppl who went to 'him'and asked for this!! They were dying and now not only have they been kept alive as trade agreements and the urgencies drop off, they aare getting opportunities to leave and 2 look at media and what else is available 4 them elsewhere. It's just not practical there and unfortunately Zachsan, there's not always going to be room for ott emotion and histerical demands on it. U deal with it and u get through until something else is accessable. If that's the best they can do with those numbers, then why is that not good??

[doc]

When Mao was in power before the initial kick of the CR it was the ppl who went to 'him'and asked for this!!

Having read two very extensive and very well researched biographies of Mao, I think that the last word that might possibly be associated with him, would be "savior".

Granted, modern Chinese history whitewashes his horrible behavior, and the fact that he was responsible for more deaths in his country than Stalin was in Russia, and, far, far more than Hitler was in WWII, is hardly made notice of in China. His despotism, bizarre sexual appetite, horrible public pogroms, and general misdirection of the country is not thought of much; instead, the fact that the communists trounced the nationalists and brought the country back together in 48 or 49, is one of his few saving graces.

Even before the Cultural Revolution, he did many things that were adverse to his "followers", that were not in their benefit. These people generally didn't "ask for it".

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Just reeading your post remembering my own trips there ?I wanna chuk!!... However Rich, I still say they did... Fat sexually depraved Govt guy really had 1.3 ( - whateverthehell the figure is) billion ppl chew him out about what he was going to do. I love Shaolin... i cried for mths when I read what Mao put them through ... haated im... but recently after going back and back n back again, I got a different window.
They know they have some freedoms deprived. they 'knoowww'they are deprived of some freedoms. they know there are other places they can go to have them.they appreciate why they exist there. they deal with it n know .and they love ús'being there to ( should they wanna shot elsewhere ) help them out 2 get by....... I respect your opinions Doc, but I I just don't think u nuetral nough......


Ps ... I think Sadam did good work twd progress tooo............. ..... pps : god take my other ft before I jam it down my throat......... I'm sorry .. he freaking did okay!... :/..)

B

[onesp1ng]

Bl, what do you mean when you say " they know there are other places they can go to have them.they appreciate why they exist there. they deal with it n know .and they love ús'being there to ( should they wanna shot elsewhere ) help them out 2 get by......." The first part I understand and can not but agree with, but I'm not sure that the Chinese, if that's who you're speaking of generally, can go elsewhere...... without a nice, looooong swim, or riches in the bank. And it's odd to me that we're discussing the country with the biggest pop on earth, but they don't let their citizens travel freely, for fear of them leaving...lol!!!!

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Firstly I mean that the approach of the govt there is benificent because way back when the international western influence first hit , they made that decision to enter into trades with the west and so by doing thaat, they opened the door for the chinese ppl to leave and have the opportunity abroad. And thaat's why we get paid so much when we go there . It's crucial to those ppl to have skills and cultural information and language and whatever to leave with.
It's a reeally big population and integration into greener pastures was neevver going to happen overnight. It's a slooww process but its happening...

and particularly after all the seminars I've conducted there around the country recently I c why Mao is still held in esteem by them. Even in the most rural outta the way places .. they have power and phone lines and communications are being made available and thaat is how that starts....from education to information to business and employment prospects and foreign networking and so on. Mao and the PRC gave the okay for all that to begin. Life has improved and they're happy to finally start seeing ways out.
..and trade opportunities are still increasing. I don't know that everything that's had to happen has been ideal but it is a start .