Shaolins vs. UFC/Pride

[master-lu]

The internal mechanics!!!!!! You've got it! They make all the difference in the world! Just like you said- so called masters out there can teach you a technique but only in a limited sence, they lack the full understanding of it, it is just like they learned it from a video. actually i had such a master- he did learn forms from videos so when he tought us the techniques made no sence and lacked the right touch which made them useless. I had almost the same experience as you. When i found my last teacher he was very happy end excited to finally have a student who believed in shaolin technique and wanted to learn how to use it for fighting as it was designed. He had a school and non of his students were interested in fighting att all so he was teaching them forms that were fun to do or looked good and forms that felt good doing. The students had learned several forms both modern wushu forms and traditional shaolin forms they practised a new form every six months. I told him what i wanted to do and he was very happy and tought me only one form- a long form with several excersises. I've been doing this form in different ways for a long time and still find new techniques in it, new applications, different sorts of energi and tension etc.. Im sure you know how much is actually in a form- its not just a form its so much more. Breath, eyes, teeth and tongue, hands, posture etc etc all are included in our practice. Gong fu is really a scientific thing and many styles are incredibly good if you get the real thing. This is why im so amazed by the chinese who created these styles. They are brilliant. And at the same time im very displeased with all the those people out there ruining gong fu and killing its name. The Shaolin is such a group- some of them are real but people only see the performers and that wack ass Abbot. It is very inspiring to get in contact with other people who know about real gong fu, like yourself. Just like you mentioned i too somtimes try to avoid telling people i train gong fu it makes them think im some kind of dancer and some have actually told me that it doesnt suit me i look hard and strong i should go train Thai boxing or Brazilian jujitsu. It takes ime to explain to people that all they know about gong fu is incorrect and i do the real thing- and only I. To a lot of people it sounds very funny when I say that im the onlyone around here who knows the real thing. But what the hell.

[master splinter]

I agree with everything you just said. If I practiced boxing or Karate or collegiate wrestling, I could tell people: "yeah I practice xxxx or xxxxx", and most people would say: "that's cool" and they would mean it. But when you say "I practice kung fu," people look at you funny and sarcastically say: oh, don't mess with this guy, or they snicker and then play it off by saying "that's cool" but to them it's really a joke. And you've made a joke of yourself by telling them.

Gong fu is actually more efficient, more complete, far more deadly (if you take it to that extreme) and far far more vast than any or all the other martial arts. But modern society has labeled it a farse and a joke because they associate it with the likes of movie stars (and people think that most of what they see is camera tricks -ie. crouching tiger/hidden dragon with people floating through the air or that the moves are sped up -when in reality, they are slowed down) or they associate it with modern wushu people who do the art/dance crap, or they associate it with posers who don't really know kung fu but say they do to sound cool and then they get their ass kicked by somebody who doesn't know any martial art.

And you are definately right about lots of kung fu teachers actually being "snake-oil salesmen." Lots of guys teach kung fu but don't really know the internal mechanics that make it the effective art it is. They are teaching you the motions, but not the skills that make the motions work. They just teach what you could learn from mimicking an instructional video. They don't teach you what muscles to flex and when, which ones to relax or keep relaxed, what it should feel like when you execute a particular technique, etc. etc. And even when they really know the internal mechanics of gong fu, they don't teach it for combat, they teach it for health, or for a hobby, or for sport.

I live in Arkansas, a mostly rural state with only one major metropolis and it's not a very big one. I looked for genuine gong fu here for about 5 years before I found it. All I could do is learn the different histories and stories about the different gong fu styles and the shaolin temple. I found a shaolin long fist school and a vietnamese wing chun school and neither one of them knew anything of internal mechanics. Their gong fu was bull****. This summer, I was lucky enough to find a guy who has been learning shaolin gong fu since he was in college and he teaches it now. Most of his students take it instead of karate or TKD and they don't care about combat. When I came and explained to him my background and what I wanted to get out of it, he just lit up. He was thrilled to finally have a student who wanted to learn the combat application of gong fu. I was thrilled to have found what I was looking for.

if you're gonna do that, i suggest (not necessarily from your picture)

that you try some conditioning, since strength and conditioning are huge components of a fighters arsenal.

heres a simple workout for strength:

setsof 25 pushups up to 200, or as far as you can you can go.

sets of 20-25 situps, as far as you can go,(push yourself)

squats, sets of ten up to 100.

every day or every other day, on an empty stomach, in the morning or at night before you sleep. do this for 2 weeks and try more difficult things like horse stances and handstand pushups.

[LeiYunFat]

Why that workout?

After a certain number of reps, you're just training your muscles to resist fatigue, when most fights never last longer than the 10 straight minutes you're doing push-ups and crunches.

Fighters should train their muscles to be explosive and strong, not fairly weak and static. Endurance has a key role, don't get me wrong, but 200 push ups, 2103214324 crunches, and 100 squats aren't going to get you far enough.

[master splinter]

wasnt meant to, its a simple routine to develop basic training habits and a little strength.

the guy is a beginner, not yet a full fledged fighter.


p.s. fights may not last 10 full minutes, but the energy expended in a fight over 5 mins makes 200 pushups like cake.


of course i dont expect the guy to do 200 push ups, id be impressed if he could do 100, but i say strive high or remain low.

you could also try to do 100 pushups in 1 minute, but thats a little harder.

[michael289]

I do have a blackbelt in a bull**** MA, but yeah, I would still consider myself a beginner. -Thanks for pointing it out Splinter.http://russbo.org/vb/images/icons/icon13.gif -Not seriously. I can just barely do 100 pushups in 10 minutes. I suck at this point in time, I know. I just got on the treadmill for the first time in a few years and ran for 45 straight minutes at 4.6 mph. without slowing and then had a 10 minute cooldown at 3.5. I know that sucks, too. But I'm working on it. I'm working on it all.

Plus, I'm 5'5" and 140 lbs. If I get into a fight where my LIFE is ACTUALLY in danger, at this point in my training, I'm just going to hit vitals like the throat, caratoid, temple, jugular, neck vertibrae and the fight is over before it even begins. But I'm training so that if a fight ever comes, I don't have to do THAT just to survive. I mean, I don't want to kill somebody. Killing is actually quite a bit easier than fighting. I want to train to engage in hand-to-hand or unarmed-to-armed combat and win against any size opponent. Obviously, the opponent's skill is a huge factor, but we're getting off base. Surely, you understand what I mean by the bulk of this paragraph.

[michael289]

Don't you just love waking up after a night of heavy drinking and realize you've got some "clarification work" to do? Sometimes when you are in the height of your revelry things come out of your mouth that don't resemble the thought you were thinking at the time (and you don't know it till the next day). Here goes:

I do have a blackbelt in a bull**** MA

I think I was feeling a little ripped off about having spent 3 yrs. studying something that didn't give me much more than balance and speed. (TKD isn't too useful by itself in a steet fight as far as techniques go.)

If I get into a fight where my LIFE is ACTUALLY in danger, at this point in my training, I'm just going to hit vitals like the throat, caratoid, temple, jugular, neck vertibrae and the fight is over before it even begins.

"The fight is over before it even begins." -I hope.

Killing is actually quite a bit easier than fighting.

The human body is very fragile even with much training. It has vulnerable points. In contact practice or while sparring, most people recommend using pads/gloves and even then, most have rules about certain areas of the body being "off-limits" for targeted blows. The throat, the rest of the neck, the temples. Because even a glancing blow with the right amount of force can seal a trachea by accident. So obviously, a correctly executed, intentional, fast direct blow to the throat should kill. -Plus, I usually have a knife on me. So killing would be easier than fighting in several scenarios. But just saying it the way I did yesterday made me sound a little psycho.

I want to train to engage in hand-to-hand or unarmed-to-armed combat and win against any size opponent.

I said "win." -I should have said "survive."
"against any size opponent" -Yes I realize that there are certain constants in this universe and metaphorically speaking, a spider monkey cannot beat a gorilla in a fight. I also realize that no matter how skilled a person is, there is always somebody more skilled (or somebody so strong or large that their advantage is greater than the advantage your skills give you).

Splinter- I tried the 100 pushups in a minute. -It's not happnin'. -Not even close. I did however manage to do 108 pushups in 10 minutes starting with sets of 25 and then digressing to sets of 10 and then 5s. I wonder if I could only manage do 8 after the hundred because 100 was the goal. Also, what is the significance of exercising on an empty stomach? I've always exercised on a full stomach.

[doc]

-Plus, I usually have a knife on me. So killing would be easier than fighting in several scenarios. But just saying it the way I did yesterday made me sound a little psycho.

Not something that you should ever say again, for that matter too. Comments like that could eventually be used against you in a court of law...

I've had a concealed weapons permit for many, many years, though I don't carry a gun anymore. I did in the past, for reasons that I won't get into. But one thing was made very clear, through all the training courses and refresher courses I've been through. If you're going to carry a weapon with deadly capabilities, you need to be able to properly use equal force against force. You have to be able to use that weapon, even to the point of killing someone, if the situation you find yourself in offers you no other choice. And you have to be prepared for the legal consequences of that action. (Just look at the two border control agents in Texas recently).

Carrying a knife, with the intent, perceived, suggested or otherwise, of using it to kill in certain situations, puts you in a position of great responsibility, and risk.

Consider that. It's not a matter to be taken lightly.

[onefocus]

fighting v competition

in response to different threads i would like to throw this thought out there: in a fight, what is more important, beating the opponent, or how you beat your opponent???

why???

also, would the same apply to sport fighting???

think on it for a while before you respond.


I think that the way you beat your adversary is the most important.

[LeiYunFat]

The way that you beat them, definately. Depending on how you do it determines if the guy is going to come back with a gun, kill himself, kill someone else, and a plethora of other events.

Let's say you ko someone...and then proceed to rape him, Pulp Fiction style. Well, depending on who you're doing it to, you may end up with having some hard pipe-hitting motha ****ers go at you with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.


As for sports, it pretty much hinges on beating the opponent, since things are regulated...Of course, if you beat him and humiliate him in the ring or give him no face, well...be prepared for the consequences.

[onefocus]

i don't think you have to humilliate your opponent in a street fight or ring fight, all you have to do is be the more effective fighter. that takes mastery. and true masterskill is having an ability to feel people in spirit, so to speak.

having the ability to asess circumstances and situations correcty and quickly

(only some people want to kill when they fight, most are angry, or scared).

i believe that a personal sensitivity to people helps to decide how hard you need to go on the street and in the ring. (though i have no formal ring training).

to me the difference is this: On the street; a cat jumps bad for whatever reason,
you do what you have to do. but the question is: how do you know what you have to do???

in the ring, it's as simple as follow the rules, and don't let the judges decide who won.

we learn tecniques in school that give us skillsets to be able to handle ourselves in the real world. and a good teacher will show you how to use them in a fight. if you train long enough, it will become body memory or intuitive. but that only speaks to technique and skill., how do you decide if someone needs to die or not based on the fighting.

[michael289]

Well, I think that from a grammatical standpoint, it could be argued that: Simply stating that a particular action would be easier than another action doesn't lend itself to suggest which action the person would take. But you're absolutely right. In today's world, one has to be careful what they say. Thank you for reminding me.

For information sake, I carry the small pocket knife for opening boxes at work, not for protection. I would never use it in a fight. That doesn't mean I couldn't, it just means I wouldn't. I was only stating an awareness of things that one could do -not that one necessarily would.

I would say the way you beat somebody is more important than simply winning by any means necessary. I think a person's honor comes into play in a fight and is evidenced by how far they take it; do they stop when the fight is over or continue to pound on a passed out opponent; are they are silent or do they resort to insults and name calling; do they use their fists or do they grab a broken bottle; do they kick sand in your eyes first?. Winning by treachery isn't winning.

As far as deciding whether or not someone needs to die: It's not anybody's place to make that decision. The only time it would be an issue is when by the nature of the confrontation, you know that you are going to die if you don't take out your attacker; you're just defending your life. If somebody just wants to beat you up, you're life's not in danger so their life shouldn't be either.

[master-lu]

If would like to argue that winning is more important. And why? Because in a street fight situation survival is the issue. And if you survive and i don't mean surviving by the help of the meds in the ambulance, rather you are able to walk away from it by your self without life threatening wounds, you have won. Some one mentioned assesing the situation and using the rigth amount of force and control and so on. These are good but for masters only, thinking too much, almost at all, in a fight can easily mean the end of you. In a real fight you don't know what amount of damage the attacker wants to do to you. Often the attacker himself does not know exactly what he is doing to you. he is just attacking in rage often he is not even in his right mind, alcohol, drugs, depression etc drives him mad. A normal gentle nice person will never attack you. You need to survive and thats it. Even if a person "only wants to kick your ass a little bit" It can still end up in some serious injury, life threatening injury. We are human and that means things almost always go wrong. Therefor I say hell yeah- if you can win it cool, calm and collected without injuring him etc Great! That takes a real master though. For us normally-skilled people in the real situation, when HE want's to kill you- THAT WON'T BE EASY!!!!!!! Believe me! Those who have been there know what I mean. In this sence i would say winning is more important- how you win is a luxuary we all strive for but few ever achieve.

[onefocus]

you make a great point. but we train to learn how to win.

defense is nothing without the ability to close the fight, you use whatever options are at your disposal with 100% intention to end the fight.

hopefully you both can walk away with nothing hurt but your pride. but because of human frailty, someone almost always gets hurt. and in some cases, even come back for more. moreover, there are people being hurt that dont have direct connection to the fight in question. So, does that mean to make mercy (in the fight) top priority???
or does it mean to unleash you killer instinct because your opponent has tried to dessicrate your holy personage???

my thought is this: a fight should be final. if you are able to walk away, the other person should be thinking, " i dont want to fight that bastard again. " he should feel as if you could have killed him any time you wanted, but you didn't. that aint easy but you have to look him in his eyes and make him understand that it only gets worse, but this time you are not trying to take it there.


peace

onefocus

[michael289]

Thank you, both of you guys (master-lu and onefocus). I think master-lu in particular understands. I have several friends (mostly woment, but some men) who are the victims of violent crime. Obviously, I guess it influences the way I think about fighting and violent confrontations. And I use the term "fight" loosely. I use it to mean any time a person enters into a physical confrontation for any purpose. That could be anything from defending the honor of your girlfriend's reputation to defending your right to stay alive.

If someone threatens the actual life of you or someone you are close to in your presence, and your martial art skills aren't quite enough to ensure their and your own survival, then what? Is this when the pocket knife (or the bic pen or the car key) comes into play?

[doc]

You're gonna hurt someone with a pocket knife?

Man, I gotta take you to New York for some serious training...