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  • #91
    Dogchow- I was speaking to Zachsan and Mortal there.

    The thing is, they can't tell me I made a mistake. If so, they can tell me exactly what it is in reality then. There is something that I felt going through me, which is best discribed as an internal energy, Qi. This isn't something we can just put on the table and study. I can't show this to you. The only way for you to say it's a mistake is to feel it for yourself and tell me "oh, that's not Qi, it's....". But if people haven't felt the same experience, how can they say it's a mistake in what I felt and it's not what I think it is? If you are so certain on that, then you must know what it is in reality that I'm feeling when I practice Qi Gong, and the reasons that the same Iron Body excersize leaves not even a short lasting feeling of impact after practicing Qi Gong as it does without Qi Gong. You can't just tell me I'm mistaken and leave it at that. Tell me why I'm mistaken and what it really is that was going on inside my body. Explain please.

    I said talk to the monks who have passed it on for generations because they've all practiced Qi Gong and they can all explain the same feeling of internal whatever you wanna call it. Not just that they will say they use Qi. But they will all explain the same feeling and experience of Qi Gong. Now you can tell all the generations of monks at Shao Lin that they are mistaken. But you must come up with a reason. Why do you say they are mistaken? And what exactly is it then? I said you must experience it for yourself because, otherwise, you have no way of knowing the feeling and so you cannot comment on it. And most of all you can't say we are mistaken and what we feel isn't what we think it is. If you can say that with such certainty, then tell me, tell all of us Qi Gong practicioners what it really is that we feel and discribe only as Qi.

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    • #92
      well now we're getting somewhere XJ.

      you're taking the logical step of "well if it's not qi, what is it". the error is that you're starting with an unfounded premise - that qi exists - and are looking for me to provide a natural explanation of what you've experienced, as if that would disprove its existence. there are hypotheses as to what is going on when people practice qigong: changes in the brain as happen with any kind of meditation; lymphatic activity; release of endorphins and dopamine; and most significantly, confirmation bias and selective memory, which would call into question the validity of the anectodal evidence to begin with. but there is no way i can prove to you that this is what is happening to you, and so you could rightfully reject any possible explanation i could give you.

      the problem is that you have the most fundamental element of the question ass-backwards, so to speak: burden of proof. it is not as if qi should be assumed to exist, and conventional scientists should be expected to disprove its existence. as we've said many times on this thread, that would be impossible anyway. the burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claim. if you make a claim that, if true, would completely change what we know about physics - the existence of a life energy that we can manipulate at will with practice, and that can affect physical objects and people - you are the one who needs to prove that. it's OK if you believe that you have proven that to yourself - although i personally believe that you have made a logical error in doing so. but until you can prove that to anyone else, you need to admit that people are being reasonable by not believing you, and at the very least, that they are not metaphorically "blind". whether or not those people have practiced qigong themselves has nothing to do with the price of tea in china.

      so finally i can't prove to you that what you're feeling is not qi energy. but that does not mean that it is, and it is a mistake to assume so.
      Last edited by zachsan; 01-19-2005, 03:58 PM.

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      • #93
        Well, it's some kind of energy that I feel. People like to put names to it but this is getting misused. I don't think it's some kind of magical energy that I can knock people out from across the room or heal them of cancer with my bare hands. But it is some kind of energy change within my body.

        For example, when doing the Iron Head skill. Even using an iron bar that is easier to snap, it's still iron and still isn't the easiest thing for most people to snap over their heads. When I first practiced it, after Qi Gong excersizes and conditioning of that area of the head and skin, I went on to trying to hit with something. I first used fists, the wall, and finally I was ready to use something. I started just with a practice broadsword. I heavy metal one. I'd do a short Qi Gong excersize and while I did it I felt my entire head being filled with some sort of energy. When I hit with the broadsword it didn't hurt at all. I could feel it touch but after that second, it was done. Like nothing happened. But when I did the same thing without the Qi Gong excersize my head felt kind of jarred. I felt the impact. I did the Qi Gong excersize again and felt the energy in my head once again. Then I hit with the broadsword and it bent at a 50% angle. Had it been the right type of metal and made in the right manner, it would have snapped. But still, I felt it touch and immediately stop. No pain, no jarred feeling, no impact. Just nothing. So that was proof to myself that Qi Gong practice sends some sort of internal energy to the part of the body which you focus it to. And the effect is more resistance and less damage. I figured with more practice I could be able to direct the energy at any given time. Later I was able to snap the broadsword with just one breath and focus to my head.

        Now you can call it whatever you like or say it doesn't exist. But what I felt was some kind of energy, named by others as Qi. I don't think it is something magical. I think it's something natural. I don't know exactly what it is. But there is something happening in the body that I can feel when I do it. If nothing happened I wouldn't feel it. For me, I'm not concerned with what to call it or how to prove or show exactly what happens. I just practice it because I know the effects. And with practice and dedication, anyone can feel the same thing and get the same effects from it. There is proof of the effects and feeling. But as for what exactly to call it or what exactly happens internally, we don't have an answer yet even though it's been around for generations. I think it's because most Asian philosophy is thinking the same way as I do. We'll leave that to the scientists if they really must know before simply benefitting from it for themselves. Instead of worrying about all that. I'm just going to practice now....

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        • #94
          well i happen to agree with just about all of that, except that there is definitely some kind of "energy" there. you basically said that you feel something, but you don't know what it is, and you can't explain it. that was a rational thing to say. you leave the realm of reason when you assert that it's some kind of "energy".

          you're saying simply that there is a feeling you get and then sensations you experience while you have that feeling are different, for instance, you feel less pain on your head. that's great, and if you want to call that combination of sensations and effects "qi", as an operative word, that's one thing. but there are many other assertions and assumptions that go along with the word "qi" the way it is traditionally used, that have not been demonstrated empirically. for example, qi travels through certain meridians; qi can be transferred from one person to another; qi can move through the air; and sickness can result from an "imbalance" of qi. these are all unsubstantiated claims that usually go along with the use of this word, and your own experiences, the way you have described them, do not support these claims.

          this is why dogchow asked you to define qi. this whole time i've been referring to the commonly held perception of "qi" as a metaphysical energy that comes from and animates living things, travels through certain meridians in those things, and affects their health.

          if you read back, i have never said that one should wait until everything about qigong was explained before doing it for health reasons. you seem to have the perception that science waits for all the answers before acting on anything, but in reality it is quite the opposite. the rational thing to do is to find out what you can, but take advantage of something which has shown itself to be useful, whether or not you understand it entirely. after all, you will never understand anything entirely. qigong is good for you, so people should practice it if they want. they just shouldn't claim to know more about it than they do.
          Last edited by zachsan; 01-19-2005, 04:56 PM.

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          • #95
            Well here is something that may (or may not) relate to the whole qi/strength/resistance to pain issue..



            Food for thought anyway..

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            • #96
              Zachsan and Dogchow-

              I don't wish to define Qi. I'd rather not use that word because it carries many meaning, some of which I don't back when I use that word. For me, it's just a feeling that when I focus my mind to a certain area of my body, that body part has a feeling of being totally surrounded with some sort of, something. I believe it's not a far fetched idea to say this something travels through meridians in the body because when I focus on my leg for example, I have a feeling that travels down the leg and then completely surrounds the entire leg, internally and externally. Not externally as it is outside of my body. But on the outer surface as well as all through internally. Kind of like dropping food coloring into a glass of water. It falls straight to the bottom in one line then it will mix and all the water will change. That's the feeling I have. It just feels more solid and protected, like a shield of some kind. Whatever it is, it's control by the mind. Scientists may be able to detect some change in the certain body part when the mind focusses to it. That's just a suggestion because that's what I feel. And if they find out this or that changes or increases in the certain body part when the mind focusses to it, then it shows there isn't some kind of "Qi", but just something natural that was already there that is increased or changed somehow. That's what I believe anyway. It's just something natural that changes the body part to resist impact. It would be interesting to be a scientist but alas... I am not.

              Firbolg-

              Yes, scientists have done studies which show people with strong faith in religion are much better at coping with pain. But that is COPING, not resisting or just not having pain at all. "Pain and Suffering". This is something many people always put together. But it doesn't have to go together. If your mind is at peace, you will still feel physical pain, but mentally you will not suffer. You can cope with the pain. If you look at the root of your suffering you will see it's craving once again. As in Buddhism we say all suffering comes from craving. In this case you are craving for the physical pain to stop. You are wanting so much for things to change and find relief from the physical pain. But when things don't change, your mind begins to suffer. So, stop your craving. Calm your mind and find peace within it. Then through any physical pain endured, your mind will be calm and coping will come natural. It won't stop pain at all. But it will break the tie of "Pain and Suffering". This isn't an easy thing to do however. So, don't be confused by that. It takes serious training of your mind because sometimes we will experience very intense physical pain which makes it harder to keep a calm mind. But through training the mind it will become more and more natural so that these negative feelings don't arise.

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              • #97
                I used to practice qigong very seriously for a few years. I felt a lot of things. It was an interesting process and I think that I learned quite a bit from it. I practice now and understand the health benefits involved, personally, though I have learned different methods and don't currently practice the one I did at that time.

                Ok, so this is not something I would do commonly.... Actually accidentally came upon it as one would a rabbit in the woods. It relates to animals, of whom I have always felt a strong connection to since childhood.

                I had a cat at then. I think she got along with my roommates at the time, more so than with myself. She was a cool, basically lazy, but very arrogant cat. She'd come up to you and hang out. Nothing extraordinary. She'd sit on your lap and allow you to pet her, etc..but wasn't very affectionate

                There was a time when I had finished practicing. I practiced for a couple hours, and the cat walks into the room. At first, she was her typical self. Later, however, it was as if she was attracted to this buzzing around me...in my hands, etc. She sat in my lap and started purring like crazy. She was like a big brick, so content, not moving in the slightest. When I'd try to pick her up, she'd let out these cries that were totally unlike her normal cries.. (BTW, she was fixed... so don't get any ideas. It wasn't as if she was in heat) Now, my roommate practiced qigong with me for a while and noticed the same thing happening after his practice. This cat would purposely invade your room or scratch at the door in order to be by the side of you, lay on you....purring deeply.

                In Taiwan, my boss gave me this bird that she hand raised. (ahhh, the presents I get. once I got a big bottle of peanut oil and a chicken head - yeah, a chicken head -- while living in Mainland.) So the bird was really cool. It would sleep in your hand. One day I'm laying there and I'm not doing anything special, just laying there and the bird is sitting in my hand. I was feeling "energetic," you might say, cause I felt my hand getting warm without prior exercises. A nice warm feeling. I intentionally attempted to increase the feeling in my palm and as I did the bird had the same reaction as my old cat. I never saw the bird do such a thing before but it appeared to be making a nest out of my hand. I sat and watched. It was really something. The bird became like a stone, stuck, incased in some sort of invisable but touchable solution....And as i laughed at her utter silliness, I again recognized a portion of this capacity that rests within our minds and bodies...an ability to influence each others moods and change the circumstances of objects by way of directing this intention with the use of our bodies and minds.

                I have to admit I take the stance that there is something there...but to press a label to that something is difficult. I have no clue. I think we could call it anything and continue to guess at it's actually function. Perhaps in due time it may be understood to some extent through scientific means. Until which I think those of you who say we shouldn't use words that cause confusion, throw around outrageous claims and mislead people are right, no matter what we've heard or been told. Anyway, the bottom line is that it'd be great to have proof and understand it's functionality. We don't.

                g
                ZhongwenMovies.com

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                • #98
                  Actually, since the participants of this thread have insisted on trying to integrate fantasy and science, i would insist that the believers in Qi provide a definition for it. Dont take this the wrong way, but in all honesty it is precisely because you dont want to do this that i want you to.

                  So far, you've done exactly what i thought you would. You didnt define Qi but you talked about what it feels like or where it exists and how it works- and this is, inherently, the problem with the Qi arguement. you're describing the effects of a practice, and trying to use that as evidence of the existence of something you cannot logically factor in. As Zachsan said, the burden of proof falls upon the person trying to convince people of that which they have no reasonable incentive to just take your word for.

                  Man, this is really starting to go in circles...

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                  • #99
                    I don't define Qi because I didn't make the word and I don't back up all of the meanings that the word is used for. To me, when I say Qi, it is just something to say so I don't have to keep saying "this something". I think this something, this Qi, is natural that everyone has and it can be affected by the intent of the mind. Whether it's something that changes or something that increases in the certain body part, I don't know. I'm no scientist. But I know the feeling. So, I can say there is something that happens when the mind focusses strongly to a certain area of the body. Once a scientists can figure out what exactly is changing, increasing, or somehow being affected, then you will have a word for it besides Qi, which is a word to not discribe but to take place of something we don't have a definition for yet. Once that understanding comes along we can change the word Qi to whatever it is that is affected in the body.

                    You say the burden of proof fall on the person trying to convince others. But that doesn't fall on us then. For generations people have practiced Qi Gong and only concerned themselves with the effects of practicing it. It's those people who don't believe something like this is possible who want an explaination and it is also them who want to convince us that we are mistaken. So, the burden of proof falls on all of you. Show us that what we are experiencing is something other than a flow of some sort of natural energy in the body. Generations of Qi Gong practicioners didn't come here trying to convince you all of something happening in the body, such as a feeling of flowing energy, as an effect of Qi Gong. It's you who are so interested in telling us we are mistaken and wanting us to prove things to you. It's not our interest to prove anything to anyone. It's our interest to simply practice it and get the benefits from it and share the practice with anyone interested in the practice and benefits. If you are so interested in a logical explaination and proof, that's on you. Go ahead and search. Don't lay the burden of proof on someone who isn't concerned with it in the first place. I don't need proof. I feel the effects and have the benefits. I don't feel the want or need to prove it to you. If you are interested, practice it. If you are interested in proof or explaination, become a scientist and study it.

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                    • And a hello just so I can post the 100th post of this thread. Ho ye!

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                      • i am really trying to be part of a somewhat meaningful conversation, but you're not making it easy.

                        you use the word "qi" repeatedly, yet you say you don't like to use the word. you say you don't know what it is, but that it's definitely some kind of "energy". you say you can't prove that it's qi, yet you insist that i have the burden of proving that it's not. you make claims about how it works, and then you say that i'm the one who's trying to figure out how it works.

                        since you won't define "qi", i think you ought to take a step back and define your argument. because right now i can't decipher it.

                        Comment


                        • Ok. check this out...

                          The original point of this thread was on the effect of Qi Gong practice, the effect of focussing your mind to a certain point of the body. I've explained my experience with it. But I have also said I don't know exactly what changes, increases, or is affected by the mind focussing in that way. The best I could do is tell about the feeling and benefit of doing the excersizes.

                          Who was it that came on here saying this idea of something in the body that is able to be affected by the mind and used in certain ways is crazy and it doesn't exist? Who asked for explainations? Who asked for proof? That would be you. You are the one interested in the logical explainations as to what it could be and proof of an internal energy.

                          My arguement is that I had no arguement to begin with. I practice Qi Gong because I experience a feeling that is much like an internal energy. I'm not saying it is an energy because I don't know. If I knew what it was I would come out and tell the world. I'm not concerned with that though. I know the feeling and the benefits. That's what I'm concerned with. YOU are the one coming on here asking for logical explainations and so on. No one came on here first trying to get you to believe in it. You came on here trying to get us to explain it. We aren't concerned with an explaination as to what it actually is. But we can just say something is happening in the body when we do it. And so we will keep practicing. The only way to prove that is for you to actually experience it yourself. Then you will feel the same and have your own idea as to what it is. We aren't scientists so why worry about it? We haven't worried about it for generations. We just practice. You are the one wanting an explaination. You asked for it. We didn't press the idea on you. So, it's all on you. Go find a scientist and bring him to one of us and we will gladly do any testing for you. Besides that, we aren't concerned with it. YOU are.

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                          • actually, chenzen asked a question, and i was simply responding to his question from a scientific angle. you didn't really answer his question at first, and then you did, with empirical claims. then i pointed out that these claims were not backed up by any evidence. your claims then changed, and have changed throughout the thread, whether or not you admit this.

                            then andrew came onto the thread, who has an understanding of the scientific method. he agreed that the "burden of proof" was on adherents of qi energy, and not the other way around. i pointed out to him that i felt it was a mistake of logic to believe in something like qi, until provided with evidence supporting it, and gave my reasons.

                            you rejoined the conversation at this point, talking about feelings you have, and that no one can comment on qi energy unless they have "experienced" it themselves. i pointed out to you, like i had already done earlier in the thread, that this was faulty reasoning. anectodes are not reliable sources of evidence for the supernatural, and there are explanations of your experiences that do not require the invention of qi energy, rendering the concept bunk through occam's razor. and now, again, just like earlier in the thread, you're saying that i am too demanding of specifics.

                            to quote, well, myself, from post number 34 of this thread,

                            it's not that i'm obsessed with specifics. it's that these specifics will be apparent if there is any real validity to these claims. if nobody knows these specifics, maybe it's because there's no validity to the claims.
                            i am admittedly an argumentative and opinionated person. i can do my best to respond to circular arguments (whether or not the other gentleman admits that he's in a debate), but to avoid insulting the intelligence of whoever else may be reading this, although i fear i may already have done so, i think i am going to call it a day.

                            so please, refer to the earlier parts of this thread for my response to your next post.

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                            • I didn't say the experience would show you evidence of "Qi". But the experience would give you the same feeling I have. Then we would be on the same page looking at the same problem with the same experiences behind us.

                              I said you can't comment on the topic if you haven't experienced it, not because the experience would give you evidence of anything, but if you haven't experienced the feeling, you can't tell me what it actually is that I'm feeling. That's very simple logic. If you don't know, you can't comment on it.

                              Throughout this thread I have said there is something happening in the body and told exactly what the feeling is. I didn't say exactly what it is because I don't know exactly. I used the word Qi to discribe the feeling of what it is. Too bad this word has been so messed with that my use of it makes people believe I am backing everyone's definition of it. I use it simply to discribe the feeling flowing through my body. It feels like an energy, which is what the word Qi is trying to discribe. Whether it actually is an energy or some kind of something, I don't know. But until you have the same feeling as I do you won't be on the same page and we can't discuss further about what exactly the feeling is. This is the reason we are going in circles. We're flipping back and forth from one page to the other. But unless you continue on to the same page as me and experience the same feeling, then we will be unable to continue discussing what the feeling is and what actually is happening.

                              Comment


                              • I don't particularly agree that the "burden of proof" is on "adherents of qi energy" frankly I don't really need any more proof of qi. I feel it all the time. Most qigong practitioners could care less what the scientific community can prove about them or beleives about their theories.

                                Frankly, in my opinion, the burden of proof lies upon those who feel sufficiently inadequate about their qigong practice that they need scientific validation, and those that are trying to sell books &/or qigong classes to skeptics and westerners unfamiliar with the subject.

                                Qi is qi. If you are really hankering for a definition, qi is neither matter nor energy, but the state in between the two. It is the product and the process of the interaction between matter and energy, substantial and insubstantial, yin and yang.
                                Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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