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Cutting glass with bare fingers (Huang Aguilar)

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  • #31
    Sorry doc,

    when i tried to answer to your last post, your server seemed to be out of service so that only this one link of my answer got through.

    What i was trying to ask was:

    You said you heard the 1989-claim from many people. I am interested in that. Any Examples i could look up?

    About Huang Aguilars 1989 time of training in Shaolin; In the following pages you see pictures from 1990 in which Huang Aguilar, Shi De Yu and Kang Tzi Ming are shown. This is from a group of seminars in Portugal which Huang Aguilar initiated. He invited De Yu and Kang Tzi Ming to Portugal, since he knew them very well from his year before, when he stayed there, training with them. They got good friends and worked together several times:

    http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/cast...funshao06.html
    http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/cast...funshao13.html

    About Dyanne: Ummmmm.....whatever...

    P.S. to LFJ: Since you quote my words, but ignore the content (such as my statement, that he was indeed ordinated in shaolin), i am going to do the same with your post Nothing personal...
    Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-15-2009, 01:34 AM.

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    • #32
      Site says 1999. But I can't tell for sure; I can't stand keeping the site open long enough to decipher the Spanish because of the irritating music.

      How oldi is Huang now?

      Dyanne is about 74; I know you wanted to know. Still getting breast and facial surgery, still promoting herself as a doctor of this and that...
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

      (more comments in my User Profile)
      russbo.com


      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by German Delegation MBOT View Post
        P.S. to LFJ: Since you quote my words, but ignore the content (such as my statement, that he was indeed ordinated in shaolin), i am going to do the same with your post Nothing personal...
        i actually did respond to that.

        i said if this is fact, that he was fully ordained (in shaolin of all places), then you should be able to name his preceptors, three teachers and seven witnesses. should be stamped on his certificate of ordination.

        you have repeatedly failed to show any proof of his bhikshu ordination.

        several pictures with monks doesnt cut it. even if he took secular discipleship under them, it still doesnt cut it for the right to abbocy of a buddhist monastery.

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        • #34
          Dear Doc,

          actually the new site is only 1 month old, that is why it is still on concept. Huang Aguilar himself does every single site that you see there. All design, every picture and every text comes from him directly. It is a huge amount of work, that is why some parts are not finished. The thing with the music is not meant to stay long either. It is more a test of integrated video on the site.

          You still did not tell me anything about the 1989-claimers...

          That's right You follow a 74 old erotic-actor with platic tits and plastic lips and plastic titles, and i follow a Martial Arts and Buddhist Master who does extraordinary things, teaches in an extraordinary way and in my view understands more about life than many people on this planet. Let's see who gets there first doc
          Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-15-2009, 09:58 AM.

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          • #35
            so why don't you answer my questions?
            ZhongwenMovies.com

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            • #36
              Actually i did intent to answer your questions too, even without directly referring to them. if something is unclear, please tell me again...

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              • #37
                these were my the questions i disn't feel you adressed yet.

                may i ask how you feel (your monastary has) no connection with shaolin, china, buddhist directions, and so on?
                how do you see your monastary and study of zen to be separated from eastern terms when it uses eastern terms to represent and define itself?
                if it's philosophically different, what is the point of being an abbot?
                and, what kind of ordination process did your teacher go through? does he have preceptors, three teachers, seven witnesses, etc? if not, what are the requirements in your monastary?
                thanks.
                ZhongwenMovies.com

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                • #38
                  Well acutally i answered these questions, but since my english is not enough it may be the case that i wasn't clear enough on some points. So i will try to repeat it a little more concretely.

                  I did not say that this monastery is a complete new invention. Of course i said it was a new step, but the knowledge that is taught inside of this monastery is an accumulation of many different things, which of course are not completely new. Maybe only in this combination of knowledge and in this density it is somethign that wasn't there before. I said that the intention of this monastery was to recreate the original knowledge, completely uncontaminated by any categories and beliefs that the various cultures put inside. This kind of task is of course extremly difficult and requires and extremly deep knowledge in culture, theology, religion, anthropology, history etc. That is what the founder of this monastery studied these disciplines all his life, in many countries all over the world.

                  What i mean by contamination is pretty easy to understand. That is a term, which is very common in religious science (if it is well translated, i only know it in german) and is one of the main issues in prooving the authenticy of a religous transmission.

                  All buddhists refer to scriptures, texts or sutras, when they speak about the buddhas intention or damo's intention. Sometimes they follow these guidelines so strictly, that they forget, that these scriptures weren't written down by Buddha or Damo himself, but by monsteries, religious groups or buddhist sects, that like in any other religion put their interpretation, schemes and structures into the texts. The same happened in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc...that is an anthropological fact. For example the bible was put together several decades after Jesus has supposedly lived. It was not written down by him, not even by his students, but by people who lived sometimes more than 100 years after him.

                  Atheist and enemies of religion argue, that this is the reason, why religion is absulete in it self. If the transmission are made by men, that had no direct contact with the founder, than nothing is safe. The rumour problem multiplies it: Some drunk lunatic invents a crazy story, a rumour, and a few years after that i maybe be widely know as: "Jesus walking over water". In case there are some Christians here: Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to say that all the bible says is made up. This was just a made up and very simple example of cultural influence over the years: contamination.

                  But if you study very deeply and by study i do not mean reading the texts but also comparing the different cultures and trying to find the root of these particular terms and those particular beliefs, going to the countries and seeing the rites, ceremonies, etc speaking with actual believers, theologist, scientists and normal people, comparing different styles of buddhism and trying to find the intersection, etc etc you may eventually get closer to the original knowledge. Only of course if have enough knowledge, time and experience to put the pieces together. In Christianity many people repeatedly tried that, for example Luther, whom i mentioned above, claimed to do exactly this kind of study.

                  That is in the end what damo wanted. He saw that all the monks around him, were blindly reciting sutras but not really working an themselves, not really putting the knowledge into action, not doing. That is why he punched on the table (that is a german expression, i dont know if it makes sense in english, but i didnt find anything else fitting, sorry ) and said stop. He was a reformer who wanted to go back to the roots of the knowledge and therefor he called all sutras, books etc obsolete. The funny thing is that even about that there is a scripture written (not by him of course) in which he is supposed to say things like: "Budhhas don't recite sutras. Buddhas don't keep precepts. And Buddhas dont break recepts. Buddhas dont keep or break anything. Buddhas dont do good or evil.". No Categories.......Even more: "If you dont see your nature, invoking buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings and keeping precepts are all useless.".

                  That is why Zen or chan is so bound to actual practise, to meditating or working or even music or martial arts. The singing, praying or actual memorizing of texts and structures doesn't count nothing for Zen. They are happy if you know that stuff, but they will tell you that on the way to enlightment this is less then nothing, it maybe even contraproductive...if you loose yourself in it and forget, who to really work on your nature then you are lost, and most likely cannot come back...

                  well since we are in the forum i can only speak so shortly and schematicly...but i think you get my point...Its like the following question: If you were a good Zen-buddhist, meaning that you found humanity in yourself, understood that the concept of you is nothing, etc etc and you are close to enlightment or have even reached it. Do you think Buddha would get out of his grave to kill you, only because you did not care about titles like Bhikkhu or in any ordinations etc? Well i think not...I think he did not give a damn about this stuff. And if any scripture tells another thing, it is because the people who wrote it down, cared about that stuff, because the wanted to instiuotionalize, instrumentalize or even gain power. But this is of course my personal opinion. anybody may answer this question to his gusto...

                  Why is he an abbot then? Well he founded this monastery, he founded this "new way" (i hope you understand now better what i mean by it) and the students in this monastery don't follow the teachings of any buddhist community but follow his teachings. That is why he is the founder and abbot of this temple. And lets not forget, that abbot is not a buddhist term, it is a normal european word for the head of a monastery, usual in any religion, even in Christianity. If he wanted to use the usual buddhist terms, he could have said Sitaigung or something like that.

                  So when we speak about a Zen-Monastery or about Shaolin, or Qi Gong, we are on the one hand very careful to point out, that the things that we teach are very different from the things that are known by that name in actual reality, especially when it comes to modern shaolin, from which we are eagerly seperated. but on the other hand we stay on the position that this is the actual knowledge, or an recreation as far as possible from the original teachings. That is why we dont call it "bimbam kung fu" but "Shaolin".

                  This is why this monastey doesn't bother to speak about the terms that "they" use, to proove any ordinations, or preceptors or witnesses, because like maestro already pointed out: This all is nothing. There are places in Shaolin were you can buy stuff like that for a few dollars. and even if Shaolin weren't so corrupt these days, it would still be nothing, because it is no step in knowledge. I know that he was ordinated to me because i saw the papers and spoke to the masters myself even if it doesnt matter a dime. I dont have them here of course, but even if i had i wouldn't send you them, because it just isnt enough. This is as stupid as if some of you would ask me to take the black belt of my master, scan it and send you a picture of it. It doesnt change anything. The knowledge and teachings inside is that what is important.

                  I hope i got a little bit closer to the answers of your questions...I did not understand the first question though...you asked me how i felt about the monastery not beeing connected to shaolin etc...do you mean my personal feeling? I feel very good about it, because in my eyes and my experience it is the only way to stay true to the knowledge and the only way to work decently and straightforward. If this monastery would be a normal, officially recognized delegation of shaolin henan, i would definetely not be part of it...
                  Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-15-2009, 03:05 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by German Delegation MBOT View Post

                    That's right You follow a 74 old erotic-actor with platic tits and plastic lips and plastic titles, and i follow a Martial Arts and Buddhist Master who does extraordinary things,
                    I don't follow her. I'm friends with her.

                    But, since when you're so interested, I could arrange for you to meet her.

                    From what I'm told, she has done extraordinary things too...
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #40
                      Why is he an abbot then? Well he founded this monastery, he founded this "new way" (i hope you understand now better what i mean by it) and the students in this monastery don't follow the teachings of any buddhist community but follow his teachings.
                      One of my very favorite threads:
                      http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2622

                      Damn, it was a good one. Educational. Truly educational.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #41
                        thats exactly what i was getting at, doc. if only i knew of that thread i would have linked earlier.

                        basically then, master aguilar cannot be called an abbot of a buddhist monastery, because he made his own thing up. claiming to teach a "pure" and "uncontaminated" form of buddhism is cult-like behavior.

                        its exactly what li hongzhi, founder of falun dafa, says he teaches- some sort of "greater dharma" (dafa).

                        there are many known buddhist-like cults. here is a link to some: http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/cults.htm

                        here is a link to another: http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/

                        like master aguilar, most of them have never had full ordination in any authentic buddhist tradition. although some have, and became corrupted.

                        master aguilar, on the other hand, has not taken full ordination. despite the claim, his ordination cannot be proven.

                        therefore, claiming abbocy of a buddhist monastery and teaching a completely new and "pure" form of buddhism ranks him with the other buddhist-like cults.

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                        • #42
                          Om tare tutare ture soha

                          Sorri, mai i ask a few question.

                          Whi senor aguilar chose to teach in Euskadi and not Spain? Whi do u call it Spain? What is position on the problem between euskadi and spain, state terrorism, torture, isolation of terrorists in jail?

                          I understand as onli being a wai to end the suffering of everi being.

                          Is senor Aguilar vegetarian? What is position on meat eating, animal rights, animal experimentation?

                          What is position on the recent killings in gaza?On state terrorism in general? On afghanistan? On Irak?

                          Excuse me if these questions r not well asked but think thei r a few important one in considering what is budism is...

                          thanks for u considering them

                          Peace and love 4 animal ghost

                          om a hung benza guru pema siddhi hung
                          Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by German Delegation MBOT View Post
                            Dear Doc,

                            actually the new site is only 1 month old, that is why it is still on concept. Huang Aguilar himself does every single site that you see there.
                            The site is one month old, and it has almost six million visitors already?

                            LOL, having run a website for twelve years, I can tell you how that happened. (Change the counter...)

                            This goes along with one other thing I notice on the site, something which sticks out really badly. Everywhere you go, it's a tribute to Huang. Pictures of Huang with this monk, with that monk, doing this amazing stunt, doing that awesome thing. It's a Woody Allen Zelig fest.

                            The term that comes to mind when I look at this site, is self-aggrandizement.

                            A definition: The act or practice of enhancing or exaggerating one's own importance, power, or reputation.

                            Behavior commonly found in insecure people, people who want to prove or sell something, or people who are involved in cult like behavior (from the cult thread: "Use of deceptive recruitment techniques that include false information about the group's doctrinal beliefs and cover-ups of negative episodes in the group's history") to further the cult's procurement of individuals.


                            I'm not saying that Huang is running a cult. Don't get me wrong. I am just providing information. I expect people to question. Then investigate. Evaluate. And eventually make their own decisions.

                            You expect that from intelligent people.
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


                            Comment


                            • #44
                              What i was trying to say, was that the site in this new appeareance is one month old, and therefor not yet finished. Of course the website itself (including the counter) is more than 8 years old.

                              Your other statements (even if you are so clever to never fully make a statement ), and the definitions for your categories, that you want to put us in, are based on assumptions or prejudices, that dont have any proove or rational reason for and therefor i assume, that what you want to do is to insult or discredit. Even if you always try to pull yourself out of it by saying: "dont get me wrong, i love you" your intentions are clear. Also the fact that you are even now surfing on the website, trying to find things that can be seen negatively somehow, is symptomatic for this kind of behaviour. (Please excuse my poor vocabulary...)

                              We don't use any deceptional recruitment tecniques, there is no use of false information i am not tryinig to cover something up. I for my part have tried to be perfectly honest with you and anybody else in this discussion, and so has anybody else that i know from our organisation... If you have any proove for these accusations, please step forward and say it formally, so we know were we stand If you do not have any proove, please be true to your liberal and intellectual claim, stop picking and come back to the root of this conversation.

                              For example, noone ever answered my three times asked question about the exhibition in which he uses a frontal stabbing motion to shoot of the top of the bottle with his fingers...Since we are making assumptions: That non-answering and the silence about it, seems a bit symptomical of trying to avoid something, maybe something that is difficult to explain...

                              I'm not saying that Huang is running a cult. Don't get me wrong. I am just providing information. I expect people to question. Then investigate. Evaluate. And eventually make their own decisions.

                              You expect that from intelligent people.
                              Dear Doc,

                              I expect people to question, to think and investigate, evaluate and making their own decisions also. In Fact that "questioning" was what i was trying to point out when i was speaking about reformists like Luther...Because thats exactly what he did. And that was what Huang Aguilar did when he decided to not be a part of any existing Buddhist lines. I am perfectly conform with you. I wonder why you think i would not be. Actually this belongs to the first teachings of the Master Aguilar in his Zen-Classes also. And anybody in our organisation is beeing called to do so. This is why this monastery is not a cult or anything similar (By the way: Similarities to Cults can be heavily found in any religion, even in Christianity or Buddhism itself). It is an open and free project, in which freedom comes first. The whole idea of Zen is to "awaken", so that people would see the world with different eyes, would see it as it is. Questioning is very important on that way. I do and did it just the same, and i hope i did not give an impression of the contrary, I tried to be very open in my answers to anybody and hoped i would not give this wrong impression. Instead i wanted to show, that my reasons are perfectly rational. So i dont get why you are now trying to go this way...

                              However your last sentence could also be seen as an insult, claiming that me myself, and other students of Huang Aguilar would not be intelligent. I guess you left that meaning open for choice. But I dont think that stitches like that are necesarry, do you?
                              Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-19-2009, 11:46 AM.

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                              • #45
                                However your last sentence could also be seen as an insult, claiming that me myself, and other students of Huang Aguilar would not be intelligent.
                                Was not directed at you or any of your people. Just a general comment. More a commentary on the state of the world than anything else.

                                i was speaking about reformists like Luther...Because thats exactly what he did. And that was what Huang Aguilar did when he decided to not be a part of any existing Buddhist lines... Actually this belongs to the first teachings of the Master Aguilar in his Zen-Classes also. And anybody in our organisation....
                                If he did not want to be "part of any existing Buddhist lines..." then why is his website called "shaolinmonastery"?

                                And you have an organization. Huang is not teaching along any accepted Buddhist lines. What exactly is he teaching? Do you have some examples?

                                And how many are in your group?

                                Just curious.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


                                Comment

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