Touchdown Shi De Cheng Wushu Guan!

[Maestro]

dogchow; real weapons are heavy and durable which is what combat on a battlefield demands. i wasnt talking about the "heavier" weps, i wasnt really talking about weps, moreso the understanding it takes to not only use them but effectively apply them without getting killed

alot of those same skills translate to empty hand techniques. and every style has their own skills they develope and focus on.

what im saying is, what exactly do you people mean when you say "traditional" im curious because it doesnt seem to be adding up

i can quote lfj saying if you go to shaolin youll be dissapointed with the martial skills there, that its a temple...oh but now they are good at gung fu?

so what does "good" at gung fu mean to you all then? forget mo duk yea its important i agree, but were not talking about that were talking about the skills, what your doing all that work for.

[LFJ]

butterfly kicks and cartwheels are for performers imo.

there are traditional shaolin forms with butterfly kicks in them, such as the kimnara staff set.

shi miaozhi (the shaolin disciple formerly known as yongbin) does his stuff like shi xinghong. so its very fast but skips over details to make it that way.

for some people, that skipping has become the way to do it to the extent that they forget what it was they were skipping. hence the lack of traditional knowledge.

but if you're that fast, flexible, and strong... it really doesnt matter. unless you're interested in learning and teaching the traditional stuff.

but being good doesnt require knowing anything traditional.

[dogchow108]

My limited experience with heavier weapons (heavy swords, Guan Dao, etc) is that they aren't for "flipping" around at all. Although I would not use the word "wield" either.

Even with relatively lighter weapons like a straight sword...I've had some interesting (albeit padded) experiences sparring with this weapon, but I have found that the way that weapon form-work flows, it seems to be teaching you to let the weapon use your body as the means of attack, rather than the opposite.

For example, A lot of neat applications can come of simply letting the swords touch and then letting gravity and momentum do the rest. Many of these end up embodying some sort of essence that can be found in even relatively "flashy" wushu forms.

I imagine that the idea behind "weilding" a Guan Dao is similar, and a rather to-the-point lesson in Tao. It is a heavy weapon, don't try to muscle it; let it flow and allow yourself to work around it.

[Maestro]

what exactly do you consider "traditional knowledge" or for that matter what is "good"

im kinda curious because gung fu skills vary, and systems no matter how similar or dissimlar they are often involve alot of work that has a focus on combat rather then just playing with weapons and such.

for example alot of people can whip around a flimsy broadsword but can they really wield a real broadsword. and if they can, how do you know if they could fight with it? thats what matters to me. its not about having to defend yourself with a broadsword, im not saying that..what im saying is either u got it or you dont

butterfly kicks and cartwheels are for performers imo.

[doc]

Maestro, I assure you, he's good.

I won't attest to his traditional knowledge (it's definitely not as good as Dechengs), but he is very skilled. I've known him since 1997.

[Maestro]

i dont think shi yong bin is that good at all, atleast not from those videos.

[Josh x]

Unfortunately I also am unable to view these photos from the computer at the internet cafe, all I'm getting is the white outline and the three-shapes icon in the left hand corner.

Due to late planning I'm heading off to Hong Kong today (there's no way I'm spending 24hrs in a seat if it can be avoided), so I won't be back in Dengfeng until early/mid week next week. I'll be considering my choices carefully meanwhile.

Take care, off to Zhengzhou to watch a dubbed English movie in Chinese. I watched 'Dragon Ball' there, and even though I couldn't understand much of what was said I can still tell you it was a waste of time. Fingers crossed that Street Fighter's finally come out.
Josh

[doc]

Same guy. He's still working up there?

He'll train you well. It will be worth your time.

[LFJ]

LFJ, now I may well be wrong about that previous statement. The coach I spoke to told me he was the sparring partner. Unfortunately I can't visually confirm this because I can't access Youtube here.

oh, right.. haha!

he's here:

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=39

[doc]

Josh, if that's the same guy that I'm thinking up at Da Fa Wen Si, and you think you can tolerate the living quarters there, then by all means do it for a month (or whatever). The training will be good, and, regardless of anything else, it will be a dramatic experience.

When Decheng returns to China, I would then go back to his school and play with him. He's well worth it.

I'll help you get settled somewhere to train in Thailand when the time comes. But while you are in China, make the most of it.

[doc]

LFJ, yes, that's the guy. I'm not sure he's still up at Da Fa Wen Si; I haven't been there since the Discovery Channel thing. But he did learn from Xing Hong, which also means, his traditional knowledge is flawed. He's awesome, but XingHong changed things far too much to suit himself (improve speed). Well, sometimes they do that.

[Josh x]

Thankyou for the information, that definitely gives me a more rounded impression of the place. There are many issues that I obviously hadn't considered; I couldn't sense that same 'cult-like' nature you spoke of but then again I was only there briefly.

What you've outlined here,

It sounds more like you're just not getting along with your coach. He's not pushing you enough, or not providing you what you are looking for. I can understand that. This is a problem that everyone can experience; get the "wrong" teacher and your experience goes to shit. It doesn't matter where you are or what school you go to; it happens.

is spot on. My coach is very young and is not what I'm looking for in a teacher. This says nothing about him as a person or friend, just not the right attitude I consider important when choosing an individaul to learn from. My other (older) coach is great but not consistent.
This is the last I will say of this, it is not my intention to pubicly bad-mouth the school; it just wasn't right for me.

I will go to Hong Kong on Saturday, I've got to stamp my visa. When I get back I will make my choice.

Deyang's place isn't at all appealing. I've met some students who are training there, they told me it was a mix bag of sanda, gongfu, wushu and the place is in a terrible condition. These schools that I have mentioned interest me because they offer the live-in experience and truly, I don't expect the curriculum to vary that significantly but hopefully the approach will.

LFJ, now I may well be wrong about that previous statement. The coach I spoke to told me he was the sparring partner. Unfortunately I can't visually confirm this because I can't access Youtube here. But whatever the case I'm sure he had some part, the French guy asked him about a television show and he looks over to me and says "aa, Jimmy," then throws a couple of punches in the air.

I'll let you know how things develop.

[LFJ]

As a side note of trivia, the head coach I spoke to was the Sanda sparring partner (not the last fight rival) with DeYang's American student, you can see them boxing the suspended punching bags.

i think the coach there was the referee during the sparing practice at dafawangsi on fight quest, not the partner. the big chinese guy who was sparring with the american used to be at master deyang's school.

that ref was shi yongbin, seen here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoCF0Ifl3Gw"]YouTube - Kung Fu - Shaolin Temple - Shaolin Stick[/ame]

he used to be a coach under shi xinghong when he ran a school in dengfeng. then he became a disciple under shi hengjun, changing his generation and dharma name from shi yongbin to shi miaozhi, and started teaching at dafawangsi. so his gongfu is a lot like xinghong's. fast, but modernized.

[doc]

You recognize Da Fa Wen Si from the Fight Quest show because that's what I had set up. Deyang doesn't train there, but I picked him, and asked him to arrange that temple up in the mountains because of it's beauty, and its distinct differences from Decheng's school, which, obviously, was the other half of the show that I had set up. I felt the show needed something other than the drip and drab of Dengfeng, so that's why the one guy ended up there. DeQian was not too happy with me, that I drew the Discovery Channel team from his military oriented school...

Shi Heng Jun had his school there, and I know the head coach, if it's the same people. As Heng Jun is now in France, I'm not really sure who is running the place. But, again, don't be that impressed with the orange outfits, and don't think that monks are necessarily teaching up there. It's going to be the same situation, everywhere. The last few times I was up there, I noticed a distinct cult like attitude, and, some of the people up there absolutely hated the place; others were fanatical about it. That bothers me. The living quarters are abyssmal. Yes, the temple is gorgeous, and that's the reason why I put one half of the Fight Quest group up there, but the training is not going to be any different than what you find in Dengfeng. At least in Dengfeng, you're not going to be isolated. And when you're in a foreign country as foreign as China, being isolated will lead to emotional issues.

It sounds more like you're just not getting along with your coach. He's not pushing you enough, or not providing you what you are looking for. I can understand that. This is a problem that everyone can experience; get the "wrong" teacher and your experience goes to shit. It doesn't matter where you are or what school you go to; it happens.

As for "not taking tourists", that's bullshit. If you got cash, these schools will take you. If they don't, then something else is going on, and I'd beware. The last thing you need to get involved with is some sort of cult mentality in a place as distant as Dengfeng. And the isolation of Da Fa Wen Si could easily foster that.

Have you considered walking over to Deyang's place, talking to him, and seeing if he'd let you train with one of his coaches half the day? Or, try breaking up your time between Da Fa Wen Si and other schools? Do you want to explore the Wushu Guan (I can arrange that too).

I had considered training at Da Fa Wen Si many years ago, when Heng Jun was actually there. I decided against it. Yes, it's pretty, but damn, it's just too out of the way for me. But, I guess it all depends upon what you're looking for. It would have been an immersive experience, but one that might end up being too much so. I would just be careful.

Let us know what you end up doing.

[liutangsanzang]

I ve trained with Shi Heng Jung who is head of Da Fa Wang Si and he seems really involved in budism, so i guess that would be a good place to study budism.

Peace and love