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  • Abbocy

    I have been thinking of the current political situation in Shaolin for some time now, especially since the arrrival of Shi Wan Heng in Vienna. Thinking about it all, has led my train of thought towards just how messed up the situation is. I think it took some major sack to throw Wan Heng into custody, or to expel him from the order- either way he was driven from the temple- a temple he maintained and protected in the face of what can only be described as extreme adversity- as some people are saying. Considering what he did and is responsible for, one would think he would have an infinite number of get out of jail free cards, especially considering the whys of why he was taken into custody. Now it seems like we have some Shaolin disciples badmouthing actual MONKS and the systems in place for their mission of spreading true Shaolin dharma, and also taking potshots at the other disciples who are creating these systems, all because of the threat to securing financial gains, and an Abbot who seems to care more about money than maintaining what should be sacred traditions that define Shaolin as Shaolin. For instance, Shi Guolin as Dharma Inheritor to Yong Xin. Traditionally, only a monk who was ordained at Shaolin can be elected Abbot. Guolin was ordained outside of Shaolin, hence his use of the name Guolin as opposed to his generational name. I wouldn't call that tradition 'sacred' per se, or even really that important, just using it as an example. It does however, help place Shaolin into a unique perspective as I don't know any other monastery which bears such a rule.

    So I am just wondering if anyone knows the background story to how Yong Xin was elected to the abbocy of Shaolin. He seems to have been a rather strange choice for all the monks to unanimously agree on him- from all reports he wasn't that great at gong fu- some say he can't even kick- he seems to be a little heavy handed in his approach- just ask the villagers- so surveying the scene one would think there were Shaolin monks who were infinitely better qualified to assume the abbocy. His stewardship also seems to be full of rather strange twists- this whole USSD thing, those certificates and the misleading way in which they are presented, the whole "ambassadorship' thing sort of conflicting with Guolin...etc. etc.

    Let's piece this together if we can.
    "Arhat, I am your father..."
    -the Dark Lord Cod

  • #2
    I've got a lot to say about this. Just have to figure out the best way to "present" it. It will take me some time. Meanwhile, let's see what the gang has to say.

    I had a feeling this was going to be a hot topic.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #3
      I remember when...

      ...you were breaking the Shaolin destruction stories, there were a lot of pictures up on the site, and some pics of hand written notes and signs, and soomeone smeared shit on Yong Xin's name, I think on Xing Zhen's tomb or something...but I remember showing shifu some of the pics and he would just chuckle and whistle...apparently there were some pretty damning accusations being made out in the public as regards to some of the things that went down upon Xing Zhen's passing.
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

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      • #4
        Yong Xin

        Well I have thought about this topic for a long time as well. Especially after going to China with Shifu. I remember one of the elder monks saying that shaolin is no longer really at the temple. That now it was up to people like Shifu to continue the tradition. This hit me pretty hard in alot of ways, i won't really get into most of them now, but one of the things that hit me was that yong Xin was responsible for that kind of attitude, whether it is true or not. ( I happen to think it is true).

        It seems to me that he is trying to create a new lineage. He has an interesting way of doing that ....... but I think this is what is happening none-the-less.

        Amitabha!!!
        Bhodi

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        • #5
          Doc, who is Shi Rong (Yong) Hai?
          "Arhat, I am your father..."
          -the Dark Lord Cod

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          • #6
            I know you didn't ask me...
            I have never heard of him, but if there is a chance that you have the generation mixed up there is a Shi Yan Hai in germany.....
            practice wu de

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            • #7
              nah...

              ...I heard through the grapevine that he was named as successor to Yong Xin but that Yong Xin pulled a fast one somehow...

              There are quite a few people who question Yong Xin's right to the abbocy for this reason, they dispute his claim.

              I know that traditionally, an abbot did not usually name a successor- transmission was done through a vote, and the vote had to be unanimous. The monk also had to have been ordained at Shaolin. Obviously though, some traditions have been left by the wayside...
              "Arhat, I am your father..."
              -the Dark Lord Cod

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              • #8
                Historically, the abbot was picked by the emperor. That was, before 1911 anyway. After that, depending upon who you speak to, there really has not been an "abbot", since there was no emperor. XingZheng did not consider himself abbot for that reason, though he acted in that position.

                Don't know Yong Hai. Never heard of him.

                More later. On tenuous connection.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #9
                  from what I was told, the emperor's role was simply a symbolic stamp of approval on the candidate the monks chose- the emperor could not concern himself with the intimacy required to know the monastic ranks well enough to choose...
                  "Arhat, I am your father..."
                  -the Dark Lord Cod

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                  • #10
                    Some more rumors??
                    I found this on my search for info about Shi Rong Hai.

                    The link:

                    http://www.angelfire.com/ks/wmal/page39.html

                    The content:

                    STATEMENT
                    The W.I.C.M.A.F. and all their members, as well their associated Clubs, Organizations dissociating itself official from the policy and the behavior of the present abbott of the Henan Shaolin temple Yong-Xin. Beyond that we do not recognize him as head of the Shaolin monastery and its Martial Arts. Here are some facts: He ordered Shi-Wan-Heng, who was a monk since 1928 to leave the temple. He now lives in exile in Sweden. Yong-Xin themself was once told, by the last abbot Shi-Xing-Zhen, to leave the temple because his bad character. Shi-Xing-Zhen named Shi-Rong-Hai as his successor. Yong-Xin: 1.-Can collect admission fees and determine were the went. 2.-has the position of a Congressman what allows him to serve in the National People´s Congress. 3.- Set up his owncharity foundation and collect donations from arround the world in his pocket. 4.-Has two luxury houses and a chauffeur-driven Mercedes. 5.-Last year he srteed to order the destroying of many shops, restaurants, schools and houses along the valley to the temple, without informing the owners and their residents and of course without obtain damages.Those resisting facing the police. So every tour to the temple will support Yong-Xin´s politics. The W.I.C.M.A.F. is strongly recommending not to travel to the temple at the moment or buying video tapes or books from it. Finally also the media have been barred from the Shaolin Village, as well as all private cameras and photos.
                    Don’t take life too serious, as you won’t get out of it alive anyway.

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                    • #11
                      Not all true.

                      I shot video and camera in the temple this past trip. His books are no longer for sale everywhere in the temple (I made mention of this atrocity some time ago, now they're not prevalent, for whatever reason). Yongxin may have pissed XingZheng off in the past, but it was XingZheng that facilitated his becoming abbot. As far as the destruction goes, after I made that known via this website, they pulled out; future destruction become more "neighbor friendly".

                      Besides, Yongxin was not completely responsible for the destruction.

                      More later.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #12
                        Cheyenne,


                        Shi Wang Heng lives in the Temple in Austria.


                        Uwe

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                        • #13
                          Uwe,

                          I know Shi Wan Heng is living in the temple in Austria now, as you mentioned it in another thread.
                          I copied this statement as it kinda “confirms” what Arhat heard through the grapevine, although not all of it is true. Just some more rumours.


                          Cheye
                          Don’t take life too serious, as you won’t get out of it alive anyway.

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                          • #14
                            Ahh.. the rumor mills!


                            Uwe

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                            • #15
                              Some concepts of recent Shaolin history and allegations

                              Let's look at history...

                              It all kind of reminds me of Hitler and Hindenburg. Fascinating events. All of it.

                              In non-democratic countries, power has an interesting way of changing hands. If you look back over the last few centuries, you can find many examples of leadership roles alternating because of power struggles, assassinations, coups, and corruption laden voting practices. But you really don't see many leadership changes because of the pure and simple act of negotiation.

                              Until you get to Hitler and Hindenburg.

                              Paul Von Hindenburg started his army career at a young age, 19 actually, in 1866, in the Battle of Konigratz. He subsequently fought in the Franco-Prussian war in 1870. In 1903, at the age of 53, he became a general in the Prussian Army.

                              He subsequently retired, but returned to his post for World War I. He was successful in two campaigns during that war, more because of the intelligence of some of his underlings, more specifially, one Colonel Hoffman, than because of his own abilities, and because of his apparent success, he was appointed Chief of Staff of the German Army. This helped him leapfrog to his next position, which, was in the political arena.

                              In 1925, because of his popularity as a war hero, and because of the relatively turbulent times of the Weimar Republic, he became president of Germany. In 1932, a much beloved president at the age of 85, and a fairly senile one, he was encouraged by many in the political arena to run for re-election. The reason was not that Hindenburg was a good capable president; the reason was, his political adversary, Adolf Hitler, was in the process of consolidating power for his Nazi party. Hindenburg was considered to be the lesser of two evils. In the early thirties, Hitler was rightly considered to be a threat, and in many cases, a lunatic. But, he had amassed a great many followers at this time, and those in the know in the political world, wanted him out. Hindenburg won the presidency, despite the fact that Hitler was amassing contacts and powerful allies in the business world. The threat had been surpassed, but not destroyed.

                              Hitler worked around his defeat, by staging a political comeback in the political world of the Reichstag. His Nazi party amassed a plurality of seats in the Reichstag during the following election, thus giving his previously disrespected Nazi party significant political strength. Hitler had become a thorn in Hindenburg's side, that just wouldn't go away.

                              Hindenburg was more or less a figure head at this time, because of his senility. Some correspondence between Hitler and Hindenburg shows Hitler trying to manipulate himself into a position of power, the Chancellorship, under Hindenburg's presidency. Hitler was supported by Papen, who convinced Hindenburg that having Hitler has Chancellor, under Hindenburg, would at least be a solid compromise, putting Hitler in a position that he so desired, but yet, leaving him in a position whereby he could be easily controlled, thus diminishing the threat that he had posed. According to one deeply detailed description of this that I had read, it eventually came to a head one night at Hindenburg's place of residence, as Hindenburg lay ill and decrepit from old age. Hitler arranged for a late night visit, as Hindenburg laid on his supposed "deathbed", and apparently made various sorts of deals with Hindenburg, in return for Hindenburg's approval to make him Chancellor. The exact details of that late night "deathbed" meeting are unknown, but shortly thereafter, Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor.

                              Hindenburg remained a relatively powerless and ineffective leader, though a successful figurehead, until his death a year later. Hitler consolidated his power at that time, merging the offices of Chancellor and President into a new office of Fuhrer and Chancellor. His rise to power in the mid to late thirties found him either expunging his country of his enemies and non-followers, and imprisoning or destroying large groups of others who did not prove to have the potential for loyalty to the new regime. There was a rebirth found within the German people, who had watched their new leader rise to power, start new and major rebuilding efforts in the country, and amass a new army of followers that had been trained and brainwashed to follow and adore their new leader. Statues, flags, buildings, and other monuments, arose throughout the country, all statements of virtual allegiance of the people toward their new master.

                              It's one hell of an example of how an ambitious leader wanna be, given the right circumstances, negotiated his way to the powerful position that he so strongly desired.

                              History is replete with the various ways that people have used to elevate themselves to power. Yongxin's ascension, as it has been described to me by various people, has also been interesting. And, I've actually written about this, quite a while ago. I found the following tidbit of information, in a diatribe called Identity, in my Fugue section. It fairly adequately describes Yongxin's ascension, as it was told to me, as it was occuring. Instead of paraphrasing it, I'll just quote the entire passage. Renember, the following is purely hearsay, third person stuff that was mentioned to me. I have not been able to fully corroborate some of these things. And, any observations that I have made, are my perceptions of what I saw. True confirmed facts in this little historical event, are truly going to be hard to come by.


                              From the Fugue section, written July 5th, 2000

                              "But, before we continue, a little history lesson is probably in order. No doubt recent actions from the governing authority of the temple has caused some confusion here, so it's probably necessary to backtrack a little and discuss a little background. The more information one has, the better one's understanding of the facts. Just remember one thing about this information: it is "third hand", or, as it is more commonly referred to in our wonderful legal system, "hearsay", and as such, would not be considered admissible in the courtroom. The following information was culled from discussions with a multitude of people, people who might have had their own "agendas", so to speak. The veracity of this information should therefore be considered tenuous, and making decisions upon this should be done with equal hesitancy. As I did not get a chance to discuss these things directly with the people involved, there was no way to verify any of this. (Not that discussing any of this with the principal players would have necessarily led me to the truth....) With that in mind, read and enjoy. Accept what you will.

                              Shi Xing Zheng was the highly respected abbot of the Shaolin temple from the hazardous and chaotic days of the Cultural Revolution, during which he honorably and bravely protected what Shaolin history and icons that he could, at, no doubt, the risk of his own demise. He was also responsible for the reorganization of the monks after the ten year chaos was over, in 1976. Remember that only fourteen or so monks initially survived that period of time; not much considering all the traditional gong fu that had been learned over the previous thousand years. Shi Xing Zheng no doubt is one of the monks who is most responsible for the rebirth of the temple after those hazardous and destructive years.

                              He had a few highly respected disciples, some of whom I had the honor to meet. They are still living at the temple, in senior positions. Their positions on this topic are not known to me, as I took the liberty of deciding not to discuss this issue with them. The information in this article has been derived from a multitude of people, both Buddhist and martial monks, and, also non-clerical people in the Shaolin village. Because of the nature of the material, and the nature of the country, I've decided to throw all journalistic integrity out the proverbial window to protect my sources. China is not a country in which you can easily claim the right to freedom of speech, unless you want to do it from a jail cell. That point was quickly hammered home upon my arrival into China, when a reliable resource emailed me about one of the monks supposedly being in prison for reasons that I won't get into at this point.

                              Shi Xing Zheng was highly respected, without a doubt. But there are questions as to whether or not he truly was an abbot, or just an acting abbot. Or, a "head monk". Historically, in China, from what I was told, only the emperor could appoint an abbot to the temple, and since the last emperor left the throne in 1912, the temple has technically been "abbot-less" since then. But, these are semantics, though, as we'll see later, maybe important ones. Regardless of what he was called, Shi Xing Zheng was a most honorable and respected leader of the Shaolin temple.

                              But, he was also getting old. And in 1989, he started to take ill. It was becoming apparent that he would not survive the year. Now, there were other very highly respected monk masters, who were in there sixties and seventies, who were highly capable of leading the Shaolin temple monks for the next ten years or so (Shi Su Xi and Shi Su Yun, for example; again, two very highly respected monk grandmasters). But, their appointment was not to be. Yong Xin, one of Xing Zheng's disciples, who, at that time must have been in his late teens or early twenties, from what I've been told by multiple sources, apparently was very close to his master. So close, that a proverbial deathbed visit precipitated the formation of something completely new and different for Shaolin: a new governing body for the Shaolin temple, and not an abbot or a "head monk", which was to take place upon the passing of Shi Xing Zheng. This governing body would be made up of six monks, and would include some of the most highly respected leaders that the temple had at the time. The committee would include Shi Su Xi and Shi Su Yun. It would also include Shi Yong Xin. Shi Su Xi was to head the committee.

                              Shi Su Xi was the perfect choice. He was in his late sixties or early seventies at the time, and was starting to deal with the early ravages of Parkinson's disease. But his personality was also perfect for the management of the committee. He really didn't want the position. He was highly respected by all the monks in the temple because he was regarded as an "ordinary monk"; one who shunned power. He just wanted to live an ordinary monk's life. Over the years, however, Shi Yong Xin started to make his preparations.

                              As Shi Su Xi started to deteriorate over the years because of the advancing Parkinson's, Shi Yong Xin took good advantage of his position on the committee, both in helping to run the issues and management of the temple, and supposedly to fortify his position. When Shi Su Xi deteriorated to the point of not being able to manage the daily affairs of the temple, Shi Su Yun, in 1998, took over the position on the committee as "head monk". However, Shi Su Yun, himself now in his eighties, really was not in any position himself to be dealing with the management of the temple affairs. I had met Shi Su Yun (he is my master's master) in 1997, and at that time, though he seemed healthy for a man in his eighties, I did not get the impression that he would be desirous of dealing with political and management bullshit. No, it was obvious that there were other forces on the committee that were managing things.

                              Shi Su Yun's tenure at the "head monk" position was not to last long; he died a year later. It was time for another monk to be moved into the proverbial "head monk" position and lead the managing committee of the Shaolin temple.

                              But, it was not to be. A decree came from the National Buddhist organization in Beijing, which had decided that Shi Yong Xin was going to be appointed the new abbot of the Shaolin temple. He was in his early thirties at the time. It was a move which came as a surprise to all, yet as a surprise to no one. The leader of the National Buddhist organization, a Mr. Ja Bu Da (spelling?), was rumored to be a childhood friend of Shi Yong Xin; apparently they had grown up together in the same village. And over the years, it had been apparent to everyone that contact, in the form of visits (with other dignitaries also), had been kept up. An abbot had been appointed in China and there was no emperor to appoint him. And he was young. It raised a lot of eyebrows. But, few said anything.(July 5, 2000)"



                              To complicate matters a bit, let's add a bit more history, some allegations, some suppositions, and some stories...

                              The following, again, is based upon observations (I make my observations clearly known), hearsay, analysis, and perception. Most of the information was given to me by, at least in my opinion, fairly reputable observers of the events.

                              In fact, XingZheng kind of acted as abbot after the Cultural Revolution. I'm not sure if he assumed the position officially, as, from what I am told, there has not been an official abbot since the leaving of Pu Yi in 1911 or 1912. (Shi Zheng Xu, was an official abbot, in the late 1800's or early 1900's; Zheng Xu was Shi Su Yuan's master, Shi Su Yuan being Shi De Cheng's master). But the whole abbocy thing gets really fuzzy after 1912, and, after the turbulent years of the Cultural Revolution. There was another individual during this time who "managed" the affairs of the temple, and his name was De Ding (spelling?). DeDing was actually not really a full fledged monk, but he was recognized as a leader and a manager of temple affairs. His interaction with Shi XingZheng is not really known well, nor is it known how much each person did with respect to handling the affairs of the temple. I got the impression from the people that I spoke with, that DeDing was more responsible for the actual running of the temple, and XingZheng, taking more of a part as the temple's leadership representative, head master, and, in effect, figurehead. One has to remember that XingZheng, in the 1980's, was himself in the twilight of his own life.

                              The formation of a committee to run the affairs of the temple was actually an impressive vehicle, especially when you consider what an opportunity it had afforded Yongxin. Let's face it, Yongxin had no chance of being appointed abbot by XingZheng; Yongxin was in his late teens or early twenties, had little or no political base in the temple, and was easily eclipsed by other, far more senior monks, such as Shi Su Yuan and Shi Su Xi. But, it was well known in the temple at that time, that even though Shi Su Xi was the choice for the next abbot, Su Xi, referred to by many as a "common monk", really wanted nothing to do with power. He was more interested in continuing his Buddhist studies, and doing whatever monks seem to like to do. Shi Su Yuan had similar feelings. Both were in their early seventies, and neither had any aspirations for power. But their inclusion on this new form of government, the committee, was necessary, so that the other monks in the temple would agree to it.

                              The choice for the other positions was crucial to Yongxin. There had to be other member of this six member committee that would basically be either irrelevant and powerless, or, depending on whether or not you believe Yongxin "staged" and "planned" this whole thing, lazy and non-caring. There are two ways of looking at this. Let's look at two possible scenarios.

                              First, it is quite possible, that, upon XingZheng's impending death, (and the previous death of DeDing), that no one really wanted the so-called abbocy, so, the concept of "ruling by committee" had been floating around the power circles of Shaolin Yongxin, realizing that his eventual rise to power in Shaolin required that he be on that committee, made certain arrangements with XingZheng so that he would be "appointed" to be a member of this committee. It is not known what XingZheng's relationships with Su Xi and Su Yuan were, it is not clear whether XingZheng felt comfortable leaving power solely in their hands. It is quite possible, that either through Yongxin's negotiations, or, directly from XingZheng's beliefs, that XingZheng might not have been as respected by Su Xi and Su Yuan as is currently thought. In XingZheng's mind, the appointing of Yongxin to the new committee might have been a way of perpetuating XingZheng's "presence" after he died. Or, Yongxin might have impressed those beliefs upon him. Regardless, a new ruling by committee method might have been placed upon the proverbial table, and either Yongxin or XingZheng felt that Yongxin needed to be on that committee.

                              Second, it is quite possible that the leadership role was going to automatically fall to Shi Su Xi, despite the fact that he didn't want it. With Su Xi at the helm, Yongxin might have realized (with XingZheng as his master, and not Su Xi), that the power would eventually fall into Su Xi's camp upon his inevitable death. Remember who Su Xi's disciples are, a great deal of the older, more traditionally oriented monks who came out of the Cultural Revolution, and their disciples, such as Shi Xing Hong, Shi De Cheng, and Shi De Yang. (I've written about these "camps" before; historically, in the Shaolin temple, these "camps", each run by a few masters, would be based upon the compass points; there would be a north camp, south, etc, depending upon where in the temple each group lived. Each group would have it's own loyalties, training, etc, thus accounting for the differences that one sees in the various traditional gong fu forms). Yongxin, knowing that his political future would disappear with the impending death of XingZheng, might have gone to his master on this so-called "deathbed" visit, to suggest the formation of this new governing committee, especially considering that Su Xi "didn't want to be abbot". Yongxin knew that the two biggest political possibilities, Su Xi and Su Yuan, would be also be dead soon. Populating the committee with Su Xi and Su Yuan, plus a few other monks that might have been thought to be non-threatening or insignificant, would assure Yongxin an eventual pathway to power.

                              What XingZheng got out of the alleged deal is not known. Quite possibly, by knowing that his main disciple was on some sort of ruling committee after his death, XingZheng might have felt some relief that his passing, and his future memory, would not go unrecognized. XingZheng might not have felt assured of that with the passing of power to Su Xi or Su Yuan; his relationships with either are not well known. It should be recognized, that XingZheng eventually acquired a very significant resting place in the Pagoda forest; his pagoda is not only well place (in the front), but very large and ornate, as compared to the others. It's only near comparison is the pagoda which has been built in memory of Su Xi, a much beloved grandmaster whose passing is soon to come. (No doubt, the very large and ornate pagoda that has been built for Su Xi, has soothed the souls of those loyal to Su Xi).

                              Yongxin's position on this committee gave him the ability to create and nourish outside political allegiances. The fact that Su Xi and Su Yuan were not interested in "taking care of temple business", and, the choice of the other members of the committee as being allegedly "fairly ineffectual", gave a young Yongxin the ability to essentially manage the affairs of the temple on his own. Over the years after XingZheng's death, his managing of temple affairs gave him the education and experience needed for his rise to power; his ability to use his committee membership to interact with local officials of Chinese government gave him the future allegiances and connections that would facilitate potential political moves. As Yongxin made government allegiances, and consolidated his power running the temple, other senior monks basically just went about their daily business, completely unawares of the rising power that was in their midst. It was only in the late nineties, about 1998, that the senior monks started to figure out what direction this was all taking. By then, it was too late.

                              An announcement by a senior official in the Chinese government, a friend of Yongxin's actually, appointing Yongxin as the next abbot, sealed their fate. It was clear to many of the senior monks who were not in Yongxin's "camp", that their future at Shaolin was tenuous. Many left, some for various other temples, some to open their own schools locally and in other parts of China. Some stayed in Shaolin, some of those suffered consequences, some of those changed their allegiances to the new master of the house. One, who had been clearly in Shi Su Xi's camp, and, who was thought to be the heir apparent to Su Xi by a majority of the Shaolin monks, was persecuted and jailed on a few occasions. (He has since made his peace with Yongxin, and continues to maintain a residence at Shaolin, though he has another residence, with Su Xi, in the Fukien temple). A majority of the masters of yore moved on, and the new Shaolin is populated with new people, trained to adore and respect the new leader. Statues, stones, and other paraphenalia, all monuments of allegiance, are consistently found, which extoll the new leader's virtues and position of power.


                              Synopsis

                              History is replete with examples, examples which, for some reason, either by virtue of simple human nature, or by some cosmic karma which makes us go around and around, keep showing themselves. It's interesting to compare interesting historical events with present day occurrences; relevant recent events can alway seem to find some sort of historical analogy or comparison. We can learn from events in the past, and should, for one easily understood reason.

                              We always seem to see them again.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


                              Comment

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