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  • #31
    Having met both a few times, I can say that Su Xi and Su Yuan are more along the lines of what one would expect from a Shaolin monk. Their cares consisted of training the youngsters, and continuing with their own absorption of Buddhism and Gong Fu. Su Xi turned down the offer to become the next abbot; he was more interested in "being a common monk", than having a position of power.

    As for underdogs, be careful here. I'm also one to stick up for the underdog, never really associating with those who've had it easy in their lives. I'd really be careful labelling Yongxin as the underdog in this situation. He is a man of not only incredible power and wealth, but also, a great deal of intelligence too. He's got many friends in very high places. (He is now the president, or whatever you call it, in China's National Buddhist association, a position of great power, on top of his local Henan council representativeship). His close friends include the last vice president of China; not sure what that guy is doing now. No, as a Buddhist and as an abbot, Yongxin is not taking flak from the Chinese government. He may have been taking flak from the Chinese people, who had seen their beloved Shaolin temple become a circus over the years. And, he's under threat from the local populace, who seem to blame him for the destruction of the village, even though, he might not have had a major part in that. So, in my opinion, I don't see Yongxin as the underdog in any of this.

    I see the old martial masters of yore, some of whom I've had the honor and pleasure of meeting years ago, as the underdogs. Yongxin has incredible control over this situation, not only locally, but on a government level also.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #32
      Underdog...that's a curious description for YX.

      Especially since he's got all the juice. It's not like YX was thrown in jail, or muscled by cops...

      Something else you guys should realize is that Shaolin Temple's flavor of Buddhism is CH'AN Buddhism. It is not the buddhist hegemony being presented by the state. Don't you see what the government is doing? They don't want 100 flavors of ice cream, just one. Just like they went in there and messed around with gong fu and now have wushu. Much easier to control. There is no lack of understanding at Shaolin among the senior monks. That is, or should be, the source for their knowledge of Buddhism, as it has been for 1500 years. There should be no need for monks to go to Beijing, except for two reasons I can think of, but hey, I'm a cynic...$$$$$ and power, or control.

      YX is doing plenty of things to show his concerns are otherwise. Like the renaming of all his disciples...

      Besides which there is plenty of other stuff that is just too private really to discuss.

      Ted, I would never name publicly who should be abbot. They've been through enough shit I think.

      I do think eventually enough will be enough. Too many traditions are changing. Either more monks will make moves like Yan Ming and some others and extricate themselves from Shaolin to continue their traditions in other Shaolin Temples which they found on their own and only have loose connections to Henan Shaolin, or enough of the old monks will get fed up enough with YXs antics that something internal will go down....

      Su Xi passing might be the spark that sets the whole thing off.

      When I say clueless, I mean clueless to the ploys of a schemer, not clueless as in imbeciles...
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

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      • #33
        Good Articles

        Hello Again

        Since we talked about Yong Xin's abbocy, Doc's brother Gene has published a new article on the abbot. I think it's interesting as it presents a slightly different view of the abbot and also has more details on his background. I think it provides a light into how he became the main man. How it interests you as much as it did me.

        WushuSpear

        old article http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=153

        new article found in the lastest kungfu qigong http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=398

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        • #34
          summary = he is on a million commitees.
          "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

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          • #35
            yeh but I really liked what he said at the end: "Most important is to foster your belief, your confidence"

            (thas deep and focussed)

            -----------------------------------
            I know a lot less of the facts than most of the ppl talking on this thread but it seems to me that either:

            -yong xin is not a sincere seeker of truth via chan and shaolin culture and therefore all these corruption theories are based on truth.

            or

            - yong xin is a sincere seeker of truth via chan and shaolin culture but is a radical and is offending traditions and people with his reforms and ways.

            If you will say that a sincere bhuddist should not be interested in worldly things like moneymaking etc, then how would the temple be maintained or developed? And if moneymaking is acceptable for monks then yongxin cant be at fault for that and it comes down to where he's coming from and what his intentions are. If hypothetically stating (as I don't know) he is true to a selfless sincere chan/shaolin cause to rejuvenate shaolin, he would be under immense internal and external political pressure by definition? Which might explain a lot of the conflict?

            Maybe there are two things; a shaolin culture that survived the cultural revolution, and yongxins revised version that he is cultivating. And which one is right? You's will probably want a winner, but i think it doesn't matter, Cos ultimately it's about individuals and any of us can choose to learn from either camp, both sets have survived and it's only a notional indulgence that we should have the tradition follow an orderly path that we find agreeable. What matters is that the heart of it lives on, and as long as the sincere student teacher relationship exists it will? Each individual must find a teacher that he trusts to learn from. Even if yongxin is evil like some ppl claim/think I'm not sure how important that is? The world is choc full of greedy evil people and theres not a lot we can do about it, and if that was so with Shaolin, the same applies (from wot i can see) and the important things live on with the people who carry that knowledge, the buildings and name and money etc, are of sentimental value only.

            I have to apologise too in case my talking on a matter with such ignorance of the realities involved offends any of the people who are involved and/or really know whats happening.


            (it's late! )

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            • #36
              Ted, I would never name publicly who should be abbot. They've been through enough **** I think.

              He's coming to dinner in a few days, lol. Just spoke with him today.


              Oh, and Samtse, start reading the site. You'll get up to speed on the Yongxin thing quick enough. And remember about what you read in magazines.

              There's a reason why they exist.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #37
                With the rise of kung fu after the movie Shaolin Temple, Buddhism had declined under the wave of tourist business and private schools. In 1984, Yongxin returned to Shaolin to study under Xingzheng once again. He became one of the founding members of Shaolin's new Temple Democratic Management Association (siyuan mingzhu guangli weiyuanhui). Then, in September of that year, he made a pilgrimage back to Jiangxi Province, to Puzhao (literally "Universal Enlightenment") Temple to undertake his highest Buddhist vows.

                Yongxin returned to Shaolin Temple and worked to develop the many facets of Shaolin Temple culture. In 1986 he helped establish the Shaolin Temple Martial Way Development Association (shaolinsi quanfa yenjiu hui ) of which he became vice-president. Their mission was to form a group of researchers working on recovering, organizing and publishing Shaolin martial arts. The following year he developed a warrior monk demonstration team for Shaolin Temple and became the team leader. In August of that same year, Venerable Abbot Shi Xingzhen passed on. Yongxin took over as the director of Shaolin Temple's management, overseeing the daily routine of the monks, greeting guests and personally taking charge of the ceremonies. In October he was chosen director for the Henan Buddhist Association


                From the above mentioned article. More about this to discuss later.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #38
                  "Imperor's role was simply a symbolic stamp of approval on the candidate the monks chose- the emperor could not concern himself with the intimacy required to know the monastic ranks well enough to choose..."
                  ..........
                  Actually Imperial goverments had a lot to say about who the
                  abbots were in the great state monasteries such as Shaolin.

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                  • #39
                    Remind me to talk more of this....
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #40
                      I'll talk about it now.

                      Two monks, two highly revered monks from Shaolin, are traveling throughout the west coast of the US. And on their journeys, they visit and enter various Buddhist temples on the way. And when questioned, they identify themselves as monks from the Shaolin Temple.

                      At some Buddhist temples, they are turned away.

                      Such is the impression that the abbot, Shi Yongxin, has made upon the Buddhist community, in various parts of the world. In fact, from what I've heard, Yongxin has lost more than some face in some Buddhist circles. Allegedly, he lost some high position recently in the Buddhist association in China, which, probably, is no skin off his teeth. With friends like his, he has no fear of enemies. But the impression that some Buddhists around China and the US are getting of this new abbot, is, from what I'm told, not a good one. They are sick of hearing about the commercialization of the temple, of the money making ability of the abbot, and of the allegedly "un-Buddhist" actions taken by him recently, including, also allegedly, his lifestyle.

                      Yongxin has many enemies it seems. And few friends. But, his friends, are most powerful.

                      And in China, that's all that counts.

                      Also in China, one gets to see quite frequently it seems, that history can be rewritten. My version of Yongxin's ascendancy, as written before, seems to be colloborated by two well known monks from Shaolin, that I've spoken with recently. His usage of XingZheng's position before XingZheng died, is well known amongst the "in the know" monks at Shaolin, and not well known outside of the temple. From what I've heard, XingZheng let Yongxin take care of some of the more common managerial duties around the temple in the mid to late 1980's. Allegedly, he was not well liked by Xingzheng, but, he was an effective and aggressive assistant. He used his supposedly self-created position to create bonds with local and eventually national politicos, bonds which became very useful ten years later when it was time to take over the abbocy. In sort of an end run pass when no one was looking, Yongxin carefully created situations, and responded to them, in sort of a brilliant way. Few monks saw what was coming, and when it happened, it was quite overwhelming and effective.

                      You have to give the guy credit. He's a smart one.

                      The general concensus that one seems to feel about his popularity, is that he's not. But, people do respect his abilities, and some, including myself, seem to think that he's going to evolve into something, eventually, great. Granted, in our minds, he's made some mistakes, some pretty major, but, if you watch what he does, and how he seemingly follows the discussions on the internet, he's more than capable of learning.

                      One example: now, a trend towards teaching and performing TRADITIONAL gong fu. Yes, you heard it right. A move backward.

                      It's going to be part of the International Festival this year in Zengzhou.

                      Amazing. Yongxin "sees all" sometimes...
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #41
                        I think that sometimes to direct is not easy things, Especially if the place occupied is important as well as regards "puisance" as as regards "prestige". But as I believe as sometimes last of the annonymat to the "light" is not done without some damage !!

                        The newspapers are full of examples. Even if Yong xin is a "monk of Shaolin", he's also just a man. It is possible that it is made errors of its own hand, but all people knowing a little the life and the policy (bus here it acts of policy above all) knows that, sometimes "choices" must be made, and sometimes, it is necessary to make compromises (with of course a relative degree , especially if he is boudhists monks)

                        What I want to say by there it' s that, nobody knowing how is the life of the Temple. Because no one does not know the pressures or the discussions which Yong Xin with the world can have which surrounds it.

                        Thus I find that it is sometimes moved to criticize without proof, or on some made even if they were apparamment carried out by Yong xin. I do not say that one should not have a spirit criticizes (I remind to you that I am French; -)) quite to the contrary but it is wise to use the "conditionel"

                        I also remind to you that it is in China and consequently the "things" do not go in the same way only to Europe or that in the USA (read well between the lines please)

                        To finish I would say things to be able to impose his choices it is necessary to be able to be sufficiently strong. Things that Yong Xin even through Shaolin cannot be allowed. Especially if the pressures come from Beijing !!!
                        This is known as without spite and right to test recadrer the things in order to advance them

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                        • #42
                          What would you do to take the Temple to this new era?. Maybe he (YX) is doing the right thing. (Sh*t, i hate to say, MAYBE). What was really wrong was how he got the abbot position.
                          Hector Villarruel
                          Guadalajara, Jalisco
                          Mexico

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                          • #43
                            The difference between Thai and Chinese abbots.

                            Two crashes leave twenty dead. (Bangkok Post, July 14, 2004)

                            "In Nonthaburi, a pick up truck rammed into the rear of a ten wheel truck near a temple on Talingchan Suphan Buri road in Bang Yai district.

                            Six passengers in the truck, including a Buddhist monk and a novice, were killed. They were identified as Phra Khru Apirum Sonprom, 50, the abbot of Wat Pu Lelai in Nakhon Sawan, a novice called Akrapol, Payu Thiewket, 16, ....."


                            The abbot of a famous Buddhist temple in Thailand. Riding in the bed of a small Toyota pickup truck with a group other people.

                            Imagine that.
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


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                            • #44
                              Hmmm, I don't think anyone ought to be too quick to judge. There may be things we do not know of.

                              Sure you can rewrite history, but the truth will come out. Take Germany for instance, people eventually learned of that. I personally, don't know if I want to go to China or not. Seems there's some good places in America, like the Doc School. One thing too, is training with different people would be good.

                              I'm more worried about Beijing.

                              Sounds though like you could use marketing guys like myself.
                              http://www.blogger.com/profile/16155538

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                              • #45
                                sort of random, but I was just reading this book called "road to heaven" about the hermits, the few of them that are still there post-mao, in China. There was a little paragraph on Shaolin. the guys tour guide explains that it is basically a retirement home for monks who are more interesed in being in a famous temple than spirituality. He said he was lucky to be accepted somewhere else after he left because normally no one would want tanything to do with you. this is like like 80's early 90's.
                                "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

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