A Shaolin Kungfu Instructor killed himself in Flushing, NY

[ajacxxion]

For false monks and poor actions: "Better to shave the heart than to shave the head."
If someone is sick and depressed, where's the compassion? Brothers should be wary of eachother's feelings. How can one commit suicide when he/she has true companions and brothers? Guo Lin and his school is one to be cautious around.

[Agan]

The died person has not been prepared for the most important: to a life! Its death - law. There is no sense to study martial arts if you die before fight, instead of after fight. To me it is mournful and it is very a pity.

[Iron Cross]

It doesnt really seem to me that the "monks" have compassion for anyone but themselves anymore... I mean while at Yan Mings I nearly died of heat stroke and his main concern was I didnt go to his book signing.. or that I was being negative about the situation... I wouldnt put anything like that past guolin or any of he others.

Sad to say given my own past experiences I was not terribly shocked something like this happened at all..

Wow... REALLLLY glad I got out of the whole shaolin scene... I dont think I can say that enough...

[doc]

Well, I'll just say that there are some very compassionate people that I've met at Shaolin. You have to consider the source.

And, as I've said before, I really believe that when you take some of these people out of their environment (the restraints of Chinese society) and put them into an American one, they change. I've noticed it with Xingwei, with an ex girlfriend, and with quite a few other Asians that I've had the pleasure of knowing. The cultural differences are sometimes more than these people can handle.

[doc]

Amituofo Doc,

I was also a student of Shi De Cheng, I am a bit confused, I recently came back from a trip to Las Vegas and I was looking for your school. I saw Xing Wei's school but I only got a chance to tak with Shao ChangJun, is there really a problem between Xing Wei and Shi De Cheng?

If you look at Xingwei's website, Decheng is not mentioned, even though Decheng played a more significant role in his life than most. Right before I was successful with respect to getting Xingwei and Decheng their US visas, Decheng fired Xingwei from his employ. The issues, as I was told at the time, revolved around various concepts such as ego, work ethic, and responsibility. At the time, I tried my best to reconcile the two, without success. When Xingwei broke his contract and visa with us, Decheng did not take to that too well either. As of this summer, they were not on speaking terms at all. (Neither am I; I don't waste my time anymore with people who, in my opinion, are shit). There is a thread in the Russbo Schools / Shaolin Chan Wu Xue Yuan thread about visas, that I think mentions this, from years ago.

[Agan]

I have read through again and again the message on death of the young master kung-fu. Probably, it was the strong fighter, but it was not valid to live, struggle with the enemy whom in martial arts do not study are a meanness, a deceit, slander, treachery. The traditional system of training martial arts has no such methods.The history of this monk has reminded me my life. I very much early became the carrier of Knowledge martial arts, I was very strong and invincible. But I was not ready to battle to other enemy: treachery, a deceit, meanness, change, poverty, famine. Me often betraid because of envy, on political grounds, at will to be above me. Me many times tried to kill, poison. And I survived. But my pain of soul was intolerable. Me declared mentally sick and placed in psychiatric hospitals, me tried to poison. Why? It very much disturbed Me. I made 2 suicides, I was hung up, but I have survived. Why I have survived? To the young monk did not pay money. To me too did not pay money, I starved, veins often for 4 dollars a week, sometimes had no it. Even now I often live in extreme need. Why I have not died till now? What reason?I know this reason: I have purpose of a life, my mystical searches and my researches. This business of my life. It holds me to live, allows me force to not die again and again.The death of the monk is instructive and reminds me: we should find subjects of the life and devote to this subjects of. Only this method will allow force to live, even when it is impossible to live. No methods of meditation, religious training will allow force to survive. Only the personal purpose in Knowledge, personal search, similarly to the Buddha. I have clearly told the opening?Forgive, that I have told a little about myself. To me it would be desirable to tell to my friends: to masters martial arts.

[9BBNJ3]

My point is eventhough we might be taught by someone who doesn't follow buddhist teachings they are still teaching us the path and it is our job to find the validity in what we are being told.

If you know they don't follow the Buddhist teachings why try to learn the path from them? There are plenty of real Buddhist monks to learn that from if that's what you want. One who is not on the path can hardly teach it to you. Checking validity would be useless then.

The fact that people in China kill themselves all the time is partially relevent. I think this because in my experiences with chinese people in general there is a certain mindset of someone that devotes there life to something that they believe in and then finds out they were wrong. It is common for chinese people to commit suicide if they feel there isn't another way out.

People in any country kill themselves all the time. What you describe is basic human psychology. Many people feel strongly about things and devote themselves to it and later become let down when they learn they were wrong. Basic psychology here. It's just as common for any other race of people to commit suicide when they feel there isn't another way out as it is for Chinese people.

It's just my feeling when I read this but your post is insulting to Chinese though your lack of understanding in basic psychology and cultural illiteracy clears it up.

[SongshanMonk]

WTF?

I have said this before and I'll state it again. I think many people who trained in a school led by a monk loses focus and forget why they started training. This is because many people became enthralled with how the monks live thier lives in America. Girlfriends, children, meat, wine the list can go on and on. So what? You started training to learn kung fu maybe some Buddhism for some of you. I think we can all agree here that most of the "monks" are martial monks and not religious. They have the right to live their life as they want and teach kung fu....does it make them all "fake" because they don't live in a temple?

Yes I am sure there has been bad blood between monks. I am sure there have been money disputes, visa diputes all kinds of stuff. Now with the lastest news "mistreatment" of immigrants is coming to light. This issue is huge right now in Texas with undocumented illegal immigrants from Mexico along with the seriously under pay and mistreatment most of them get here.

I just think what's happened is a tragedy. Should this be a catalyst for change let it be. No one really knows what happened except for those who were there and involved.

[demitri]

Amituofo 9BBNJ3,

My intent wasn't to offened you, I was merely stating my view it is fine for you to disagree with me. I would like to ask you this, If I went and killed a group of people that killed others would I be wrong or right? In life we all have paths to follow we can learn from anyone wether it is to be like or unlike them, there are flaws in everyone thatdoesn't make them unworthy to learn from.
Amituofo

[doc]

This is because many people became enthralled with how the monks live thier lives in America. Girlfriends, children, meat, wine the list can go on and on.

Enthralled?

My experience has been far different. When Xingwei pulled his stunt at our school last year, a large majority of our students experienced disllusionment, disgust, and, to some degree in some instances, devastation. Some people were really hurt, especially some of the younger kids who were old enough to have had formed some sort of understanding as to what a "Shaolin monk" should be.

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. If you're going to go through life purporting to be something, especially something that is generally regarded as having a certain level of standards, then you should go through life with that level of standards, or, at least, try to represent yourself in that light. If you're going to wear the cloth, then you should at least try to live the life of that cloth. If you're going to pretend to be a "monk", then at least try to act like one. If you're going to be an abbot, well, you get the picture.

I feel sorry for Guolin. He may not have had any sort of responsibility in this event, but people are going to look at him in a different, and tainted, light now.

[9BBNJ3]

Amituofo 9BBNJ3,

My intent wasn't to offened you, I was merely stating my view it is fine for you to disagree with me. I would like to ask you this, If I went and killed a group of people that killed others would I be wrong or right? In life we all have paths to follow we can learn from anyone wether it is to be like or unlike them, there are flaws in everyone thatdoesn't make them unworthy to learn from.
Amituofo

Sure you can always learn from anyone. Just the fact that if you want to learn the Buddhist path it's not by watching others who aren't on the path and doing the opposite. If your goal is to learn the Buddhist path you should learn it from those already on the path and experienced enough to teach you.

As for your question I'm confused. If they already killed a group of people and are just sitting around eating chips and watching some toons then yeah you're wrong to kill them at least in the Buddhist precepts, number 1. It's a different question if you say they are continually killing. But still to kill is wrong. There are others ways to protect life than taking one. And if not well that's karma.

[sanxin]

Sorrow for Death of an Innocent Heart

News Dec. 4 from Singtao Daily:
“.. Guolin sent Ms Lianmei Huang to China to comfort Wang’s parents..” Wang’s parents want Wang’s teacher, Mr. Yanzhang to take responsibility..”

We are not sure if their parents are willing to come to USA. Guolin wants to take care of Wang’s funeral “as soon as possible”, so he can stop either Wang’s parents or other people looking for his illegal facts ( not paying employers salary..etc). Apparently, Guolin are ready to shut people’s mouth xxxxxxxxxxxx (edited:doc). Well, Wang is gone. And, they will not understand how much Guolin damage humility, laws and religion in this world/country. Then Guolin is gonna win one more battle this time, and successfully continues using his unique skills Lian Huan Kung Fu (Series Rings Interlock Kung Fu) “money & mind washing” .. and since he has money, and connections..
What’s wrong with this world?

-- Sorrow for A Death of Innocent Heart --

[Chicken]

There are two things here I would like to comment on:

1) what was really behind the breakdown in NY that resulted in the suicide:

Hengshan wanted to follow his shifu and leave Guolin. Goulin sponsored his entry into the US, so he wouldn't let him go, and his visa most probably wouldn't let him change employer. The relationship broke down, Heng Shan got depressed and morbid.

They don't believe in Western Psychology, and even if they did they can't afford it. Everything that Guolin did thereafter completely complies with what is common practise in China. In China, he would have got on a bus or a train and went home to his family and would recover and wind up doing whatever he would be doing if he haddn't gone off to become a shaolin warrior.

Hengshan appears to have chosen not to go home, had he raised a cry for help, there are many here in the UK alone that would have helped him.

Immigration is risky, the incidence of suicide and early motality in the immigrant population is way higher than in the normal popluation. Heng Shan was a grown man when he took on these risks and was tragically on the wrong end of these statistics. He was the casualty of a work place dispute, he was far from people who could support him, and he gave in to his death instinct.

Any of you who have lived with them in the temples or in a well-run school in China that is operating under Shaolin / Buddhist doctrines will know what Cha'n is. Most of the guys that turn up in the west have lived in Cha'n buddhist environments for the last 10 years or more. They turn up here and that's replaced with the social isolation that is normal in western societies, where the cost of living if extremely high giving them a tremendous struggle to survive. They are guided by individuals who are even less educated than they are themselves. Many of their shifus are kids of the Cultural Revolution... many of them did not learn to read or to write, let alone get the slightest relevant experience of how to operate a business in the West. Until this is stabilised, there are going to be further casualties.

This leads me into the second thing that I have an issue with:

2) The part that we play in expecting them to live up to our own idealistic culturally defined requirements that they all live pious, celibate lives, and Guolin complying with us.

I sincerely hope this practise does not continue.

Bring them to the West, take away the social fabric of the temple and their families, what do you expect them to do? Its a life preserving pshychological response to isolation to reach out and become attached to people around you. Its inevitable that they do this, and honestly until Shaolin has established itself internationally, and is able to provide the structure that they are presently not able to give the current prescious pioneers, its better that they do reach out and find partners who can give them the physical and emotional security they need, lest we have more casualities.

The kids in the temples in China are living monk lives, they live in harsh conditions but they are supported by the social fabric of the monastry. Most of them get to leave the temple after around 3-4 years. Its like a university, they teach them about buddhism, polish their wushu, they learn things about Shaolin medicine, etc, and then they send them back out into the world to continue their unique paths to enlightenment.

Its been like that for centuries. Anyone who says otherwise, evidently hasn't been that close to Shaolin, because nothing much has changed, other than they are doing more performance work these days, and their temple has been turned into such a tourist site, that unless its freezing cold it prevents them from the serenity of monastic isolation that they sought in the first place in building their temple on a remote mountain side.

My favorite picture of the whole of my time in China these last 18 months, is a picture of 4 little dudes from Heng Xuan's village. It just sums up for me everything that China is, these grubby little pals growing up together in poorest rural China. And yet I did not realise that it concealed so much more that is utterly relevant about present day China. Heng Xuan told me a month ago, that two out of the four aren't their parents' children... they were bought from the hospital, not adopted, bought from the hospital. Families in China would rather buy a son than risk having another daughter. The reality is there are no surplus sons in China to go off and become celibate buddhist monks.

If they stay in the Temple, well hell yes, its easy to be a celibate monk, but as soon as they get back outside, they are under immense pressure as part of the 1 or 2 child family system to marry.

There is no social system in China... if they do not grow up, make money and support their parents, their parents work till they drop in the fields with nobody to nurse them. What's more if they themselves do not have kids the same fate awaits them. You think that's a responsible path that's complicit with their buddhist faith? Abandoning your family to suffering is not something that is complicit with Buddhist faith.

Look non-celibacy in monks and nuns in Buddhism is quite normal accross the Far and South-East, probably for prescisely these reasons. Its not the same as the Christian approach. Buddhist believe that the individual has the right to choose how they live their lives.

Given the way that the current topology in China is preventing the possible supply of surplus sons to go off and become sons, I think we should all just accept reality that they nearly all are going to be married, well until China releases its birth control policy. In the meanwhile, check out anyone who does claim to be a real monk.. where are his parents, does he have a brother supporting them? Or does he just have a deficit of compassion?

They say the easiest path to enlightenment is to become a monk, the rest of us usually come accross people, fall in love and make our lives and struggles with awakening a lot more complicated. The monks are no different. Just because they get invovled in a relationship, marry, have children, doesn't mean their path's to enlightenment are any less valid, or that their ability to instruct you on Shaolin Enlightenment is any different. In fact because their lives have that degree of similarity to our own its easier to understand them and to observe how they deal with their struggles is revealing.

Unfortunately all it seems to be revealing at the moment is that they are utterly unprepared for life in the west.

Still, we are incredibly fortunate to have these guys with us. You can learn from them in so many ways, not just in gongfu. They are at once throw-backs into a life that has long gone, and throw-forwards, in that their years of gong-fu and mediation have accelerated them on the path to enlightenment. Some of those that are here at the moment are desperately isolated, in a land that they will probably never truly get to grips with or understand... I for one instead of judging them have taken the lesson that HengShan has taught us: stop judging and dictating to them and offer them the support, friendship and compassion they need so we don't see futher casualties.

Chicken

[arhat]

interesting post chicken.

re: celibacy, don't forget that many who came back from the CR came back with families in tow, and there are monks whose sons then became monks. It seems a little ridiculous to me to impress celibacy considering that fact of the matter. The Buddha halls did not self destruct when these men came for worship, the sutras did not ignite at their touch.

anyone who knows me knows I think defining monasticism with celibacy is a lark. if it's adoption mirrors that of other spiritual systems, such as the catholics, and I have a strong suspicion that it does, then it's adoption has nothing to do with spiritual matters but everything to do with inheritance.

People seem to forget that Gotoma himself was a family man, and had his family with him. If anyone can believe for a single second he did not express love for his family, then to be honest he does not deserve our respect or investment of our own lives in recognizing.

In any case the dharma is self evident.

[demitri]

Sure you can always learn from anyone. Just the fact that if you want to learn the Bu

Amituofo 9BBNJ3,

Wow your not as blind as I thought you were. Although the way you answered made me think you may not really believe what you said.

About following a teacher that lives the true buddhist lifestyle, how do you ever know if someone really does what they say you should do. You never really know unless you are with that person 24/7. People should not discredit every shaolin monk for the fact that there are a lot of them that are fake. If you are just wanting to be a buddhist and not have the wu shu then you should just go to anther temple, but if you want to learn shaolin wugong then you should go to a shaolin monk. This is because they have really good skill (most of them atleast) and even though they may not completely follow there own teachings they are still truthfully teaching buddhist ways.

Amituofo