Thoughts on war

[daodejing]

Doc, have you ever read A Geneaology of Morals by F. Neitzche? It's mind blowing, you should pick it up. You might take a second look at what you think justice is.

[doc]

I've read some Nietzche in college.

Didn't understand him back then, doubt I would now, lol. Kind of "out there" like Freud was.

[doc]

British member of Parliament Patrick Mercer has revealed Saudi authorities arrested two Islamic suicide pilots. He said the pilots were preparing to crash two light aircraft into a packed British Airways passenger jet while it was still on the tarmac at the airport in the Saudi capital of Riyadh.

Both light planes had been crammed with explosives. And Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi (search) said he had received reliable intelligence of a Christmas Day plan to assassinate the Pope and destroy the Vatican by flying a hijacked plane into it.

Fox News

Assassinate the Pope. Of all people. Still think showing these terrorists love and compassion will make them change their ways?

[Maestro]

heheh

was just about to ask where you been getting these headlines, then i looked and saw "fox news"

well thats a shocker

freud was mostly bull****, its why we like him so much in the west

nietzche is easy to understand, i like him..but his philosophy is flawed

"sometimes, when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you"

heheheh..

[daodejing]

My favorite instance of Nietzsche getting a wee bit off track was in "The Birth of Tragedy" where he claims that the whole institution of christianity was a vicious plan enacted by the jews to acheive a lasting and drawn out retribution against the roman empire by perverting its values.

But in all seriousness there is some interesting stuff in the Geneology of Morals about the origins of punishment being ultimately economic, and that it was a huge leap the day man decided to equate the pleasure of watching one who has wronged you suffer as being equal to the debt he owed you.

Did you know that in ancient egypt, a culture who held death and the afterlife as being vitally important, it was legal for a living man to deface the grave of another man if the dad man owed him money or had committed an unpunished crime against him? Now the question is, does the man who does the punishing think he is carrying out justice, or is he merely appeased by the idea that he causes untold suffering to the man who has caused him to suffer.

Simply put, we live in a society. There are advantages and disadvantages to living in such a society, and in order to smoothe the opperation of things that society has laws. When someone flagrantly breaks the rules of our society we remove him from it. We call this, and the institutions which have evolved from it justice. But justice does not exist, it is a word, a mental construction at best. It is something we made up to reflect the way we thought things should be.

Terrorists are empowered by the idea of justice. They beleive they are doing the right thing and that there is no other way to help their people and defend their homeland.

To them, they are right and we are wrong, to us, we are right and they are wrong. Could it be that noone is right and noone is wrong? Could it be that right and wrong are one and the same and nothing?

As for the pope, I'm not surprised he became a target. The middle east did not forget the crusades. And since they missed the oppurtunity to kill the popes who ordered the slaughter of jerusalem and antioch, they'll settle for this pope. I'm not saying its the right thing to do. JP was blatantly against going to war in Iraq. But it's understandable why they might direct their wrath his way.

[Maestro]

umm

taoists teach opposing forces like yin and yang are complementary, which means they are codependent

without evil, good couldnt survive, because without the concept of evil, there wouldnt be good, there would be neither

therefore, there is a right, and there is a wrong..how do we define what right and wrong is? through our conditioning as humans, usually through religion, which most major relgions are based on gods will

so i guess you could say god decides...

im just sayin there is a right and wrong, and THEY are wrong..unless of course theres something they know that we dont

regardless though killing innocent people and religious figures is definately WRONG..that raises another question though..i mean we killed innocent people in WWII with our nukes, but that was because we had to stop japan otherwise there would have been more deaths..if they believe with all their heart and soul and such that they are doing this for the greater good..then really how can we stop them besides killing or capturing them?

i dunno..

rant over

[RJW]

there's a thing we say in Israel the day after a suicide bombing, usually sounds like this:
"Oh, yes there was an attack, i had already forgotten."


I've been in places where things regularly blow up and the locals don't think much of it. As others have posted the average citizen does not live in fear. I said our way of life changed meaning as a country the fear of terror exists, that it will happen again & that is why the security measures are heightened. That was the objective and they achieved that, we don't take things for granted any more. New Years isn't a happy-go-lucky day any more because while millions of people are having a good time there's still the thought in the back of their minds that a plane could drop on them, & the government certainly takes that seriously enough to implement measures. This very thread shows how much it's on people's minds, nobody in North America gave terrorism much thought 5 years ago. We now live in interesting times…

[daodejing]

Yup maestro that's one of the laws of yin and yang. Interdependence. There's also the intertransformation of yin and yang, the mutual opposition of yin and yang, the mutual consupmtion of yin and yang, and one other one which I can't recall right now. But we're forgetting something here. Yin and yang are relative terms and nothing more. There's alot of talk in daoism about "rolling yin and yang into one". In other words, returning to wuji. In this light, yin and yang do not exist.

[Maestro]

yea

yea well, in this world, the phenomenal world we(the masses) live in, they do

you, me, doc, and osama and bush jr dont live in that light, was only my point

not talking about ultimate reality here

[shaolinstylee]

It sucks to have to choose the lesser of two evils, but in taiji (the yin and yang together) there is always a bit of yin in the yang and a bit of yang in yin... so who knows, we can only do so much. I'm scared though that too many people think overly idealistic, and not realistic enough about this. There are a lot of people who'd blow you up even if you brought over pachulli oil and your guitar to sing them koombaya.

[doc]

You Anti-Bushies might like this:


Presidential Confession;


I attacked and took over two countries.

I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.

I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).

I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's record, but I did).

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV.

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, had a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)

I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.

I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one letter away from BS).

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Reagan was tough to beat, but I did it!!).

I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war.

I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

GEORGE W. BUSH

The White House,

Washington, DC


Full of errors, but amusing nonetheless...

Wonder if I can get a boat named after me. Something that is propelled by more than two oars.

[DarkDao]

"sometimes, when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you"
i know a lot about the abyss kid and believe me it does.


didn't nietzsche also say whatever dosent kill you makes you stronger? well 9/11 didn't kill us! bush got the right idea putting a bounty on their terrorist heads. you want to get warm and fuzzy with these people then warm them up. we did it with the japanese. it was war then its war now drop a couple a nukes on them and see if any one ever f***s with us again.
i know what your thinking but we got a lot more than they do. then there's clouds of radiation swirling around the globe right? well we all gotta go sometime. life's a bitch.

[cassius]

take a minute out and listen to how ridiculous you sound.

[doc]

The French tried to stay warm and fuzzy with the Arab world, (indirectly, the terrorists). Tried to stay friendly with, and support, Iraq, when Iraq was harboring, training, and supporting terrorist activiity.

Now the terrorists have seem to focused on Air France for some potential future terrorist attacks. So much for that airline surviving. And, think about how the tourist economy to France and Europe in general is going to suffer now, that international flights to Europe are having so much trouble.

France and Germany will suffer. Economically, and eventually, otherwise.

So much for being warm and fuzzy.

[daodejing]

Yeah well we were damn warm and fuzzy with Saddam Hussein for YEARS when we giving him money and weapons and free military training for his personell just so he could go kill iranians for us.

The united states armed the iraqi army, but noone seems to remember that these days.

As for the french, eh whatever. Add it to the annals of french military history. Those people have been rolling over in fights since before the fall of rome.

As for us, we'll be ok. Even if everything we think we know comes crashing to the earth, we'll be ok. Just train harder, with more qi. And live by the way of heaven if you can. Because one day, perhaps not in our lifetime, but one day Babylon will come tumbling down.