Thoughts on war

[daodejing]

It does so quite well doc, but what was that quote about protecting ourselves from threats to our liberty and our civil consititution? To be quite honest the PATRIOT Act is about as big a threat as we've ever seen to our civil constitution. But maybe I'm wrong, I mean it only partiallly nullifies the 1st, 4th, and 6th amendments in the Bill of Rights. I don't consider the formation of a police state to be a fitting tribute to our fallen brethren. Let us not ignore the enemies of our liberty who happen to be elected officials. Not all our foes are arabic.

I can honestly say that in the first few months of his presidency, long before such atrocities as the 911 attacks and the PATRIOT Act, our current president committed treason against the american people by ignoring the findings of an EPA study (which stated that levels as low as 10 ppb would be considered above the acceptable limit for carcinogenic substances in food/water) while repealing a law about the acceptable level of arsenic in drinking water (thus restoring the legally acceptable level to the old value, set in the 1940's, of either 25 or 50 ppb I can't remember which it was). Arsenic is a common byproduct of many mining operations and his 2000 election campaign GWBush recieved several hundred thousand dollars from mining industry interest groups. The preceding is just one minor example of his treason against the american people (incidentally that alone is enough to begin impeachment proceedings). If we are to hunt down those who threaten our lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, let us not forget the foes who happen to be caucasian. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[doc]

We had two airplanes crash into our largest buildings in the US, taking thousands of lives, triggering an economic nightmare, and causing a dramatic change in all of our lives and the lives of people all over the world, and you're worried about a little arsenic in the water?

You should come out to Las Vegas and see what's in our water. Calcium, chlorine, jet fuel, radioactive waste, you know, **** like that.

Did I forget ****?

Oops.

[daodejing]

I'm just saying he's had a long drawn out habit of repeatedly committing treason against the american people, and noone in congress has the balls to call him on it. I offered one example, there are hundreds more.

And incidentally, though it was a bad thing for the country, the 911 attacks were wonderful for the bush administration. They stood to gain (and did gain) far more than any other terrorist group in the world from that atrocity. And it would not surprise me one bit if at least one government agency knew about the plot ahead of time and was ordered not to interfere with it.

Let's not forget any of that.

[doc]

Not sure you can say 9/11 was good for the Bush administration.

It could have been an absolute disaster if the economy remained bad. Or if we had more terrorist attacks on our soil. You just don't know how these things are going to turn out.

It could still all go bad. One nuclear device in New York, and you think that will be good for the Bush administration?

[dogchow108]

the patriot act, an atrocity....wow, cute. very good thing to put alongside 9/11 as an atrocity. great judgement. you go, man way to fight the man.

[daodejing]

Doc, you're damn right about that, a nuclear explosion in NYC would not be good for ANYONE.

Dogchow. Yes, the patriot act is an atrocity on par with the 9/11 attack. The difference is that on one side several thousand people died, while on the other side several hundred million people lost alot of their civil rights while several thousand people were imprisoned for nothing, beaten, and denied constitutionally ensured rights to be able to speak to an attorney or even be told why they were arrested and what charges they were facing.

The patriot act allows the FBI to enter a home without a search warrant, or to enter a home without showing the inhabitants the search warrant. It allows any immigrant (legal or otherwise) suspected of terrorist involvement (meaning, anyone arabic in descent) to be arrested and held for up to seven days without being told why they were arrested or what charges they are facing. They also can be denied the right to see an attorney for those seven days or longer. After that period, the law enforcement agency must either press charges, release the immigrant, or deport them. They can be deported without being guilty of any crime.

Furthermore, the legal definition of terrorism has been expanded to the point that nearly any politically active group whom the government decides to label as terrorists can fit the definition. The current legal definition of terrorism under the patriot act is that any person or group of persons who are endangering human life while in breach of any piece of the U.S. code whilst engaged in an attempt to influence U.S. policy is commiting a terrorist act. Any person or group of persons who have given monetary or other identifiable support to a person or group of persons who have or are in the process of committing a terrorist act can be detained and have their assets seized for aiding a terrorist group, which is considered an act of terrorism.

Now that bears a bit of explanation, the "endangering human life" part includes yourself. Thus if you lock yourself inside a government building (loitering, a violation of U.S. code) and go on a hunger strike (endangering human life) while making a political statement (an attempt to influence policy change), then you are committing a terrorist act. Under such a broad definition your 1st amendment right to speak out against and protest government policy is severely inhibited. In addition to all this, many politically active groups that were never considered terrorists before can now be defined as terrorist groups. Greenpeace, and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals fit the definition of terrorist groups. Thus if the FBI decided to prosecute you, they could arrest you and seize your financial assets for something as simple as giving money to PETA.

But here's what's definatly happened so far as a result of the patriot act. In the months following its passing through congress several thousand islamic immigrants (most of which were legal immigrants with proper paperwork and no criminal record) were arrested, beaten, and jailed for seven days without being told what the charges against them were and without being able to speak with an attorney (a gross violation of the 6th amendment which is now legal under this atrocity of an act). They were held for seven days while they were interogated and physically abused. After the seven days was up, some of them were released. Many of the legal immigrants were deported even though no charges had been filed against them. Only a tiny fraction of these people were actually prosecuted for committing a crime.

I don't condone the slaughter of innocents. I don't beleive that such actions should go unpunished. But I do beleive that for our government to behave like this in the wake of such a tragedy is a disgrace to the dead, and a horrible disregard of what our founding fathers held as what should be the pillars of our legal system.

Terrorism will never fall to the hands of a police state. Further oppression of innocent people will not bring back the dead, nor will it justify their deaths. Further oppression of innocent people will not reunite familys that were rent assunder by this tragedy. Deporting a legal immigrant who has committed no crimes, exiling a father from his wife and children, this will not bring a dead NYPD officer back to his family. Further opression of innocent people will create terrorism, not stop it. Further oppression of innocent people will only succeed in enraging a new generation of young men to the point that they choose to take up arms in the name of God.

[doc]

Thus if you lock yourself inside a government building (loitering, a violation of U.S. code) and go on a hunger strike (endangering human life) while making a political statement (an attempt to influence policy change), then you are committing a terrorist act

You're also doing something illegal, according to pre patriot act laws.

You're trespassing.

Don't you have anything better to do? There are other ways to institute change in our society.

And as for the PETA people, they go too far. To the point of turning people away from their views.

[DarkDao]

home grown terrorism: one of the ideas of terrorism is to initiate change. they want the govt to crack down and instigate martial law, they want things to get SO bad that everyday citizens will openly rebel against their own govt because they're tired of living in a police state. but thats countries that want internal change, almost a civil war but not quite. what happened to us was a vicious outside attack by people who don't care about change in our govt they want to destroy our very why of life! now how far are you willing to go to protect your way of life? we aren't living in a police state, most citizens lives haven't been touched. my finger prints are on file from a long time back not because i did anything criminal but for legitimate reasons of a security job I was doing. do i fear my prints will be used against me in some 'big brother' like manner, hell no. they might even save my life some day if i'm ever in an accident or something and need to be IDed. but if you do something criminal then you have reason to fear., even if there are mistakes wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution, pick up and detain an inocent man for a while if the FBI believed he had something to do with a nuclear device in new york? or just hope the statue of liberty didn't become a glowing beacon in the dark?

[doc]

I first got fingerprinted when I got my taxi cab license. Many many years ago. I think I even got footprinted when I dropped out of the womb. Since then, I've been fingerprinted for god knows how many jobs, for concealed weapons permits, for all sorts of things. Doesn't bother me at all.

[daodejing]

Hmmm. I've only been fingerprinted three times in my life, and never outside of a police station

[dogchow108]

Dao, the partriot act is not a terrorist act on par with 9/11. thats simply all i'll say about that. you know it, i know it. i just think its worth saying.

[doc]

Originally posted by daodejing
Hmmm. I've only been fingerprinted three times in my life, and never outside of a police station

Would you like to elaborate on that?

[daodejing]

Not particularly, no. Suffice it to say that I've never been convicted of any crimes. Though I have been successfully ticketed for an open container, and on another occasion for "disturbing the peace". Go figure, I tried to break up a fight and next thing you know an officer is pointing a gun at me telling me to get down on the ground. After they searched everyone at the scene and couldn't find any drugs they ticketed everyone for disturbing the peace. I thought we were helping to maintain the peace by diffusing a fistfight into a mere screaming match. Apparently I was wrong, according to the gun-toting men in blue.

And I used my juvenile offender already. So if I get arrested in Connecticut again (and its a nonviolent felony) then I cant use Accelerated Rehabilitation.

[doc]

Got to watch out for that disturbing the peace stuff. Law enforcement usually has no idea who's involved in altercations when they show up. Always best to not get involved, unless a woman is on the receiving end of some sort of ****. If it's a bunch of guys, I leave it alone.

So, is it safe to assume that you have trouble with authority figures? Or, authority in general?

[daodejing]

Corrupt authority figures and trying to get back on topic...

Nah, its not a problem with authority in general, so much as it is a general dislike of those who abuse authority. For example, I know that one of the groton town police officers who pointed a gun at me on the previously mentioned occasion was badgering a friend of mine all night in a local bar on an occasion two summers before that, trying to score a bag of coke. And he was really trying to get some coke, he was not in the least bit undercover, just offduty.

But the local cops are somewhat loyal if slightly corrupt, on another occasion a friend of mine who was bartending in new london helped some offduty new london police officers get some coke. They sincerely thanked him, being that noone else was willing to help them. A few months later he got arrested in new london on a DUI and possession of marijuana. His one phonecall was made to someone inside the police station. Within two hours the charges were dropped and he was released.

And just to really demonstrate how bad the NLPD is, several years back a potential recruit was denied entry in the new london police department because (this one still makes me laugh) he scored TOO HIGH on an IQ test. True story. It got alot of press for a month or so, the guy even made an appearence on the tonight show. But the NLPD still never let him onto the force.

So I've never been all that involved in illegal activities, but I've had good contacts, and for a time people came to me when they wanted to find people who had things. This, coupled with my dislike of those who abuse authority, has always given me some trouble in relating to police officers (except for the nice, legitimate ones, those guys are great if you ever meet one)(Sean Griffin in the Groton Town pd is a good guy) and corrupt authority figures, like our unelected president.

But I'm learning to deal with that. Frankly, its one of the last things that is still capable of angering me. So I'm trying to do what I can to remove my attatchments, free myself from desires, and do what I can to help those around me. But it still irks me a bit when I hear that Bush's approval rating has increased, or that the majority of the american public still thinks the war in Iraq was a great idea becaus "Saddam was behind the 911 attacks". Frankly given the lack of WMD in the country I think it would have been a far better solution to pay off a group of Iraqi's to kill Saddam, and then let them do whatever they wanted with their country. Sure there would've been no small amount of political upheaval and bloodshed, but hasn't that been going on anyway regardless of our military's best efforts?

But enough of hindsight, and enough of foresight. The lesson I'm trying to realize (and slowly understanding) is that the world is fine the way it is. Its not "supposed to be" one way or another, better or worse. It simply is. Corruption is nothing new. People fighting against corruption is nothing new. People dying because they took up the fight against corruption is nothing new. So it would be a waste of my life to go out and try to "change the system". Instead I'm just going to try to understand peace within myself. To cultivate virtue, and to help those around me.

And if I ever find myself receiving power and authority, I shall have no choice but to give it back to the universe. Because power tends to corrupt. And absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. So do what you can for your fellow man around you. But most of all take care of yourself. Love yourself and extend that love to all things, because to love God is to love yourself, and to know that all that exists is not seperate from self.