Thoughts on war

[doc]

From an associate in a "military zone". Kind of puts a perspective on it all...

So we are up in the mountains at about 0100 hrs, looking for a bad guy that we thought was in the area. Here are ten of us, pitch black, crystal clear night, about 25 degrees. We know there are bad guys in the area, a few shots have been fired but no big deal. We decide that we need air cover and the only thing in the area is a solo B-1 bomber. He flies around at about 20,000 feet and tells us there is nothing in the area. He then asks if we would like a low level show of force?

Stupid question. Of course we tell him "Yes."

The controller who is attached to our team then is heard talking to the pilot. Pilot asks if we want it subsonic or supersonic.

Very stupid question. Pilot advises he is twenty miles out and to stand by. The controller gets us all sitting down in a line and points out the proper location.

You have to picture this. Pitch black, ten killers sitting down, dead quiet and overlooking this about 30 mile long valley.

All of a sudden, way out (below our level) you see a set of four 200' white flames coming at us. The controller says, "Ah -- guys -- you might want to plug your ears". Faster than you can think, a B-1, supersonic, 1000' over our heads, blasts the sound barrier and it feels like God just hit you in the head with a hammer. He then stands it straight up with 4 white trails of flame coming out and disappears.

Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000.
Hearing damage: For certain.
Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless!

[shaolinstylee]

LOL...

good story.

[RJW]

BBC NEWS WORLD EDDITION
Last Updated: Friday, 13 February, 2004, 03:44 GMT

Suicide bombing 'pig fat threat'

Israeli police are to hang bags of pig lard on buses and in other public places to deter would-be Muslim suicide bombers, Israeli media have reported.

The Maariv daily said rabbinical authorities sanctioned the plan to use the product - considered impure by Jews and Muslims - if it might save lives.

Officials hope the prospect of defiling their bodies with blown up pig lard might discourage would-be recruits.

Hundreds of Israelis have been killed by suicide bombers in recent years.

Rabbinical approval

Rabbi Eliezer Moshe Fisher, of the Jerusalem Rabbinical Court, said there was no "halachic [Jewish law] ban on using bags of lard in buses and other places" when saving lives is concerned, the newspaper reported.

He said the bags would also be permitted to be placed in shopping centres, train stations, schools and other public places which might be targeted by bombers.

The rabbi said if police do not enact the plan, tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews will arm themselves with guns capable of spraying liquid pig lard at suspects.

Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Yaacov Edri said he supported the plan.

"If bags of pig lard will prevent zealous Muslim terrorists from carrying out attacks, I'm all for it," the newspaper quoted him as saying.

------
"General, you don't have a war plan! All you have is a kind of horrible spasm!" --Secretary of Defense, Robert S. McNamara, 1961.

"The policy of the United States remains unchanged. Upon confirmation of actual nuclear attack on this nation, our strategic forces will inflict unacceptable damage on the enemy." --Pentagon spokesman, 1975.

"Unhappily where matters as basic as territorial defense are concerned, our higher brain centres are all too susceptible to the urgings of our lower ones. Intellectual control can help us just so far, but no further. In the last resort it is unreliable, and a single, unreasoned act can undo all the good it has achieved." --Desmond Morris,'The Naked Ape.'

[shaolinstylee]

Man, how often would they have to replace that to not have it absolutely reek.

[daodejing]

Um, I'm pretty sure it absolutely reeks from the very start of it all. We're talking about isreal, not sweden. Incidentally, did anyone consult the muslims for their opinion on the matter to see if it would really deter any bombers? Cause that just seems like an idiotic idea. Oh well, its worth a try just write another chapter into the divine comedy of life.

[doc]

It's actually not idiotic. It's brilliant.

If Muslims are in any way "mixed" with pork, they won't go to their divine ending. The one with all the virgins and stuff.

And it shouldn't smell if it's in sealed bags. Interesting if they do this.

[cassius]

apparently that divine ending with the virgins was translating wrong.. in light of new evidence or something.

it means something else, but i forgot what

[doc]

Well, here's the passage from the Koran that deals with the passing on into the next "life", whatever that may be. I've highlighted the verse that refers to the virgins. I think it's all a matter of interpretation, but one can see that it might refer to the people that died, and not what they were going to be surrounded by.

Much unlike the Mormons. God love their religion. At least they make things more clear when it comes to the virgins.


56.1] When the great event comes to pass,
[56.2] There is no belying its coming to pass--
[56.3] Abasing (one party), exalting (the other),
[56.4] When the earth shall be shaken with a (severe) shaking,
[56.5] And the mountains shall be made to crumble with (an awful) crumbling,
[56.6] So that they shall be as scattered dust.
[56.7] And you shall be three sorts.
[56.8] Then (as to) the companions of the right hand; how happy are the companions of the right hand!
[56.9] And (as to) the companions of the left hand; how wretched are the companions of the left hand!
[56.10] And the foremost are the foremost,
[56.11] These are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah),
[56.12] In the gardens of bliss.
[56.13] A numerous company from among the first,
[56.14] And a few from among the latter.
[56.15] On thrones decorated,
[56.16] Reclining on them, facing one another.
[56.17] Round about them shall go youths never altering in age,
[56.18] With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;
[56.19] They shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted,
[56.20] And fruits such as they choose,
[56.21] And the flesh of fowl such as they desire.
[56.22] And pure, beautiful ones,
[56.23] The like of the hidden pearls:
[56.24] A reward for what they used to do.
[56.25] They shall not hear therein vain or sinful discourse,
[56.26] Except the word peace, peace.
[56.27] And the companions of the right hand; how happy are the companions of the right hand!
[56.28] Amid thornless lote-trees,
[56.29] And banana-trees (with fruits), one above another.
[56.30] And extended shade,
[56.31] And water flowing constantly,
[56.32] And abundant fruit,
[56.33] Neither intercepted nor forbidden,
[56.34] And exalted thrones.
[56.35] Surely We have made them to grow into a (new) growth,
[56.36] Then We have made them virgins,
[56.37] Loving, equals in age,
[56.38] For the sake of the companions of the right hand.
[56.39] A numerous company from among the first,
[56.40] And a numerous company from among the last.
[56.41] And those of the left hand, how wretched are those of the left hand!
[56.42] In hot wind and boiling water,
[56.43] And the shade of black smoke,
[56.44] Neither cool nor honorable.
[56.45] Surely they were before that made to live in ease and plenty.
[56.46] And they persisted in the great violation.
[56.47] And they used to say: What! when we die and have become dust and bones, shall we then indeed be raised?
[56.48] Or our fathers of yore?
[56.49] Say: The first and the last, SO. Shall most surely be gathered together for the appointed hour of a known day.
[56.51] Then shall you, O you who err and call it a lie!
[56.52] Most surely eat of a tree of Zaqqoom,
[56.53] And fill (your) bellies with it;
[56.54] Then drink over it of boiling water;
[56.55] And drink as drinks the thirsty camel.
[56.56] This is their entertainment on the day of requital.
[56.57] We have created you, why do you not then assent?
[56.58] Have you considered the seed?
[56.59] Is it you that create it or are We the creators?
[56.60] We have ordained death among you and We are not to be overcome,
[56.61] In order that We may bring in your place the likes of you and make you grow into what you know not.
[56.62] And certainly you know the first growth, why do you not then mind?
[56.63] Have you considered what you sow?
[56.64] Is it you that cause it to grow, or are We the causers of growth?
[56.65] If We pleased, We should have certainly made it broken down into pieces, then would you begin tb lament:
[56.66] Surely we are burdened with debt:
[56.67] Nay! we are deprived.
[56.68] Have you considered the water which you drink?
[56.69] Is it you that send it down from the clouds, or are We the senders?
[56.70] If We pleased, We would have made it salty; why do you not then give thanks?
[56.71] Have you considered the fire which you strike?
[56.72] Is it you that produce the trees for it, or are We the producers?
[56.73] We have made it a reminder and an advantage for the wayfarers of the desert.
[56.74] Therefore glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.
[56.75] But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
[56.76] And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;
[56.77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,
[56.78] In a book that is protected
[56.79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.
[56.80] A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.
[56.81] Do you then hold this announcement in contempt?
[56.82] And to give (it) the lie you make your means of subsistence.
[56.83] Why is it not then that when it (soul) comes up to the throat,
[56.84] And you at that time look on--
[56.85] And We are nearer to it than you, but you do not see--
[56.86] Then why is it not-- if you are not held under authority--
[56.87] That you send it (not) back-- if you are truthful?
[56.88] Then if he is one of those drawn nigh (to Allah),
[56.89] Then happiness and bounty and a garden of bliss.
[56.90] And if he is one of those on the right hand,
[56.91] Then peace to you from those on the right hand.
[56.92] And if he is one of the rejecters, the erring ones,
[56.93] He shall have an entertainment of boiling water,
[56.94] And burning in hell.
[56.95] Most surely this is a certain truth.
[56.96] Therefore glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.

[doc]

There are five references to the pig in the Koran. (There are also references to it in the bible). These references make it clear that pigs are a bozo no-no to the believers.

[2.173] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[5.3] Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

[6.145] Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine-- for that surely is unclean-- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

[16.115] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[Lipster]

Interesting idea, and not entirely original. The same suicide tactics were employed by the Muslims against the British when they occupied Palestine, and burying slain suicide bombers with a dead pig was discovered to be a great deterrent.

Jesus, what a situation. Hanging bags of lard to deter maniac killers.

And Jews are only prohibited from consuming pork, it's a bit strange that it needs all this sanctioning...

[dogchow108]

the reason we dont really want to do that in israel is for Kosher reasons. it dosent necessarily mean that we only can't eat it. to get the pig's blood you need to slaughter or take part in the slaughter of the pig. this will probably not be sanctioned by Israel's government on account of it's being a jewish government.

[Lipster]

Nothing wrong with killing a pig as long as it's not for consumption - it's no less kosher then any other non-kosher animal. It's supposed to represent the epitome of 'uncleanliness' because of its characteristics, thus the impurity thing, but technically speaking it's simply unkosher. And killing an unkosher animal is not prohibited as long as you don't eat it. So I still don't see the problem...

[daodejing]

Yeah, and it still isn't written in the koran that if thou die with pig fat on your remains thou shalt go to hell, thou shalt go directly to hell, thou shalt not pass paradise, thou shalt not collect 40 virgins. And incidentally, doc from that translation of the Qu'ran it seems like the prophet is saying that the deceased will become virgin again. Not that they shall get it on with mad virgin honies.

[Lipster]

Well Dao, I think they consider such remains thoroughly impure, and being buried together with impure remains would be considered to be a problem spiritually speaking, no question about that.

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by Lipster
Nothing wrong with killing a pig as long as it's not for consumption - it's no less kosher then any other non-kosher animal. It's supposed to represent the epitome of 'uncleanliness' because of its characteristics, thus the impurity thing, but technically speaking it's simply unkosher. And killing an unkosher animal is not prohibited as long as you don't eat it. So I still don't see the problem...

pigs are part of the unkosher foods because in judaism you dont eat things with split hooves. kind of like another food that is unkosher is any food that east other animals (shark, eagle, tiger, etc). it has nothing to do with cleanliness, you might be confusing kosher laws with other things- especially the pig thing. And you are not allowed as a jew to slaughter unkosher animals, which is why the Israeli gov't wont do the pig blood thing. But then theres a lot of things the Israeli gov't could do but wont.


what the koran was meant to say, also, is less important in this case than how it is interpreted. these "desperate" "suicide" bombers are told about 72 virgins, dying in jihad, etc, etc...these things are largely propagated by the people bringing them up or controlling their people.

anyway, everything's a perspective but what really matters in context is the interpretation being acted on. as for whether pigs blood will work...only doing it will tell us anything.