Scientology

[zachsan]

i agree with doc's feelings about religion. i also believe that in america we have the right to believe what we want. that has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not scientology is a cult.

neither, for that matter, does the fact that releases are a normal part of life. medical releases are not, nor should they be, a normal part of religion.

listen, i know you believe very strongly in scientology, and nobody is trying to put you down simply for believing in something unconventional. lots of us on this site believe in some very unconventional things. but the way you write belies an intelligence that just does not come through in your reasoning. when you've gotten to the point that you're defending something by bringing up elements that you know have nothing to do with it, and then you're going so far as to suggest that incriminating pictures must have been doctored or digitally altered... well, you're believing in something so firmly that the facts have no place in that belief.

i suggest that you ask yourself the question: what theoretical event could ever possibly prove to me that scientology is a cult? if your answer is "nothing", then your faith is blind. but if you allow for that possibility at all, i suggest you review the evidence one more time, without dismissing it as conspiracy. http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html

[daodejing]

I've signed plenty of release forms in my life. The ones I've seen are very simple. They say that if I am injured while participating in a particular activity I agree not to sue those who held said activity.

That is very very different from this. This release form allows members of your religious community to place you in indefinite solitary confinement. It allows members of your community to pschologically torture you in the name of "spiritual assistance".

And doc, I too suddenly became nautious when I saw that a guardian can consent to this for a minor.

Legaling refusing future pschiatric care is one thing, legaling accepting future pschological torture is something else entirely.

[doc]

Since I know little of the McPherson case, I don't feel qualified to comment on it.

Well, I didn't know much about the case either, so, I presented it. And, after reading about it, I used my insight, education, and experience, and formulated an opinion. Based upon the facts, not upon the organization or people. Notice I made no commentary on McPherson herself, who, granted, truly may have had some real psychiatric issues. Nor did I comment on the various people (and one unlicensed physician) who were involved in her "care", as, I know nothing about them. All I know are the facts, as were reported in local and national respected and unbiased news organizations and law organizations.

I formulated an opinion.

Now, as I said before, I really don't care what people want to believe in. If you want to think of god as some big white rabbit that wears fuzzy pink slippers, then I'm all for it. But, I think if you're going to believe in something, then, there should be some sort of reason for you to believe in that. And, if you're that dedicated to an organization, an organization that, in your mind, offers some sort of benefit to you, then, by all means, you should have the loyalty to defend that organization and its actions.

If you can't, or don't wish to, than I really don't see that you're dedicated to that organization. Or, don't believe in it strongly enough. Personally, if I believe in something strongly enough, then I'm not afraid to stand up for it.

And express my educated opinion about it. Based upon a logical discourse.

[Limni]

Sigh. Boys will be boys, I suppose.

“All the data” is not in doc’s posting (re: McPherson). He copied it from a news organization that has proven in the past to be opposed to Scn, from what I can see. I don’t expect an unbiased report (St. Petersburg Times). It is Scn policy to take anyone who needs medical treatment to a medical doctor first. If one has broken bones, you go to a hospital for a cast, for example. To imply that this was not done, if true, is not within the policy of Scn. Scn helps save lives through the application of its technology. [I imagine if you want the opposing view, you could always write the Dept. of Special Affairs at your local Scn organization for info.]

As for the Introspection Rundown, that is not a procedure done on everybody, but just a select few. Why it’s on the form posted, I have no idea and as such I will not comment on something I am not expert. Suffice to say I have signed similar or even the same one with no ill effects and no duress upon my person.

Here’s an example of our response to Katrina:

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR ALL VOLUNTEER MINISTERS!
WE NEED YOU NOW!!!!

The assessment of damage and loss of life following in the wake of Hurricane Katrina cannot even yet be assessed. On Tuesday, some 1200 people who were stranded, were rescued by rescue teams. There are some 250,000 people still to be evacuated from this city, and meanwhile flood-waters continue to rise (with 80% of New Orleans under water), threatening life and causing untold damage. Easily, 10,000 people are now without homes, by one estimate made. And this is only ONE area struck by the hurricane. Katrina also devastated the coasts of Mississippi and Alabama in Biloxi, Gulfport and Mobile where inland from the beaches you can see streteches of land with nothing other than obliteration with 90% of the buildings complete gone right at the coast line. Much of the city streets are covered in debris and resuce workers have to dig through this to get to people for rescue.
On Tuesday, the Volunteer Ministers were officially assigned the hat of helping a government agency in the relocation of hundreds of homeless people to new shelters. We have been given clearance to provide counseling and assistance to people through Scientology techniques.
And further, the Sheriffs office of the Vermilon Parish (a county) of Louisiana has stated in an official letter the following:
The international Scientology Disaster Response Team is operating in the State of Louisiana in response to the devastation created in our fellow parishes in South East Louisiana. More than 300 volunteers are coming to Louisiana with this team to ensure that correct aid is given to those affected by Katrina.
And the letter goes on to say:
The international Scientology Disaster Response Team has worked at Ground Zero during 9-11, assisting clean-up and aid after the Tsunami, and was a major force in every hurricane to hit Florida in the last three years. They are experts in handling human misery and assisting the rescue workers and other relief teams to get the job done. They should be allowed on any and all lines within Louisiana to further assist in reliev[ing] the devastated survivors and to help us rebuild southeast Louisiana.
As I write this VM's are mobilizing from Atlanta, Illinois, Clearwater, Los Angeles, Tampa, Miami, Nashville, New York, Orlando, Sacramento, Houston, Dallas, Las Vegas, San Francisco and Charlotte. But more are needed and needed now!
500 Volunteer Ministers are needed NOW in Louisiana and Mississippi to help the thousands upon thousands of people who have lost their homes, their property and possibly friends or family.
We have been given a hat and a responsibility to help this disaster area. If you are a VM, you need to act. We are the only ones who have the tech to address and handle this situation. We have can bring order, we can organize and we can and do bring sanity in times of confusion.
The VM Operation Headquarters is in Baton Rouge at the Mission. Get together with your friends and associates and form a team, and contact us now, or your local VM In Charge, and arrange to fly or drive to Baton Rouge Louisiana.
If you can go, need assistance to go or have any questions call or email one of the contacts below.
Donations are also URGENTLY needed as we are providing food, water, medical supplies, toiletries and other essentials to literally thousands of homeless people.
This is a time for action and we have the technology and knowledge to help these people to restore their lives.
Please do so.
Conacts:
1-800-435-7498
vm@volunteerministers.org
I HELP East US
212-757-9615
ihelpeus@ihelp.org
Or contact your nearest org VM In Charge.
Or contact:
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY MISSION OF BATON ROUGE
9432 COMMON ST
BATON ROUGE. LOUISIANA 70809
PH: 225-928-7804
EMAIL: BATONROUGE@SCIENTOLOGY.NET

Yeah, probably should have just used a link, sorry about that.

If you did not have Scn, then what would YOU do to handle the world situation? Or disasters such as these?

The reactive mind is real and does negatively affect billions on this planet. It must be wiped out for the sake of Man.

Proof? Looting in New Orleans; the Iraqi War, the arguments you have with your parents, the destructive habits that wreck relationships. When the reactive mind is erased, the instigator has a change of habit pattern and no longer does these things. That’s proof based on observation and application of Dianetics.

If you do not know what that is, then read excerpts from Dianetics. When I refer to reference sources it is not meant as a refutation but as an invitation to take a look yourself. Also, I don’t feel like copying from the books!

If you prefer I can do that instead.

See you next week. Limni.

[daodejing]

just out of curiousity, how does an operating thetan with no reactive mind respond to say, having a punch thrown at their face? Under the assumption that they have obliterated the reactive mind would they simply take the punch? That would seem to be a poorly operating thetan in my humble opinion.

Looting, the iraq war, and personel familial squabbles offer no proof whatsoever that something needs to be done about they "reactive mind". The first two examples simply prove that greed is in an intrinsic emotional response which afflicts all social strata, and the latter example proves nothing whatsoever when you offer no context and explanation of it.

The form of a logical agrument is the statement of several precepts, followed by a conclusion. The argument is only logical if we consider that IF all the precepts are true, the conclusion must be true, and it is impossible to be otherwise. This does not mean a logical argument cannot have false conclusions, but that the conclusion may only be false if one or more of the precepts is untrue. Logical argument is the basis of proving scientific theory.

You fail to demonstrate any link between your precepts, (looting, war, arguments) and your conclusion (the reactive mind is real, negatively affects man, must be wiped out).

This is most of what zach has been saying all along, but hopefully a bit clearer now. Being the lovely little empiricist that he is, he can't stand participating in illogical arguments.

SO, in short, please explain why the "reactive mind" has the properties you applied to it, and what exactly you meant by "must be wiped out for the good of Man."

[doc]

“All the data” is not in doc’s posting (re: McPherson). He copied it from a news organization that has proven in the past to be opposed to Scn, from what I can see. I don’t expect an unbiased report (St. Petersburg Times). It is Scn policy to take anyone who needs medical treatment to a medical doctor first.

Boys will be boys and doc will be doc.

And doc doesn't think you're paying attention. Or concentrating, with an open mind.

I appreciate the fact that you're at least trying to converse with us about this. An educational discourse, preferably without bias, is always good for the community.

The St. Petersburg Times was not the only news organization that looked into this; this was, at the time, pretty relevant national news, covered by many different news organizations. It would be hard to say that they are all, anti-Scientology.

And, your comment about Scientology providing IMMEDIATE medical care, is DISPROVEN by the autopsy photos that I posted. If you look at the poor woman's face, it is obvious to those that are medically trained (and should be obvious to you all, with a little "education"), that this woman suffered for at least a week or two from lack of nutrition and hydration. The loss of subcutaneous tissues and fatty tissues in the face are obvious (around her eyes, cheekbones, nasal area), the loss of muscle tissue (in her temporal regions) all demonstrate malnutrition and dehydration. The condition of the eyes (sunken), the lips (dry, cracked, shrunken) also clearly demonstrate a severe state of dehydration.

You don't get like this after a day or two of not eating or drinking. It takes a week or two, depending upon environmental conditions.

And, you don't get over one hundred cockroach bites within a day or two either. Cockroaches, like other species, won't start eating something unless they think it's "dead" or dying. Any healthy human can easily swat a feeding cockroach away. This poor woman must have been in such a debilitated state, that she was unable to move. Dehydration, malnutrition, and magnesium injections, will lead to muscle weakness. Chloral hydrate ingestion will most definitely lead to sedation and apathy; all of which contributes to a condition in which a human can become fodder for insects.

Just to put this into perspective, mind you, cockroach bites were not commonly found on the walking prisoners in Aushwitz. If you look carefully at many of the relevant photos, taken when they were liberated by the Russians, you don't find the insect bites that you see on this McPherson woman's body. Does that "say" anything to you? That says a lot to me.

I really do not see the Scientology organization, in this case, providing medical care to someone who needed it. At least, not until they had a warm dead body on their hands,with no idea what to do with it (other than try to dispose of it with a fellow, far away, Scientology medical professional (who had licensure issues after this event, for prescribing medication to a "patient" without ever seeing them; that is, this McPherson woman).

NO, in my opinion, I see this as manslaughter. It's truly egregious behavior, without any evidence of anyone really demonstrating any sort of the so-called "good samaritan" behavior which would at least, alleviate the perception of horrible acts here.

[zachsan]

hey, i'm a "lovely little empiricist" now. fantastic.

anyway, in addition to what dao & doc said, limni, i feel it's necessary to point out that you dismiss everything in the St. Petersburg Times simply by saying that it possesses an anti-scientology bias, but then refer us to scientology websites for the "true" story.

you must realize that by your logic, if anything bad is said about scientology, the source possesses an anti-scientology bias, and thus is irrelevant. that means that to you, the only sources worth considering are those which are going to confirm your beliefs.

again, go to this website: http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html . it contains links to hundreds of articles from all kinds of sources, including some official scientology sites.

[dogchow108]

you must realize that by your logic, if anything bad is said about scientology, the source possesses an anti-scientology bias, and thus is irrelevant. that means that to you, the only sources worth considering are those which are going to confirm your beliefs.

not to cramp ur style, there, Zachsan, but you need to understand something. this guy believes in Scientology. despite the constant pounding of information in the forms of facts, opinions and who knows what else, he will still believe in it. this is because Beliefs, by their nature, thrive not in light of reason but despite it.

Limni- out of curiosity, do you understand what makes your arguement belief-based as opposed to fact-based? maybe the apparently missing ability to differentiate between the two is what is causing you not to understand whats going on here.

[zachsan]

well i, uh... believe that there are different types of beliefs. those that are based on reason and facts, and thus are tentative; and those beliefs which are based on nothing but themselves, and thus never change for something as trivial as evidence. in other words, i don't think "belief" is a bad word. but this guy is exhibiting a serious case of "true believer syndrome" (http://skepdic.com/truebeliever.html).

even if one person involved in a debate is a "true believer", i don't think it's useless to attempt to debate based on facts.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

"U" did not just say that ??!! ............


Been off for a little bit myself playing around with some engrams and fml iron crotch practice and tantra that'd make Daode proud and ( crazy rider scientology babe ) & jazz, but I did print out and have a good look over that first bit of the article that Doc posted recently and particularly about the 8 dynamics and their relationship to qigong. Don't have my notes here and a little busy to back over it now, but even if Satan gets lonely and wants me back , it's still something I want to address anyway, so if I don't get it up here , if you're interested you can likely find it soon at hell zen..........

[blooming tianshi lotus]

just out of curiousity, how does an operating thetan with no reactive mind respond to say, having a punch thrown at their face?"

Something like a practicing zennist in satori perhaps ???
...........

was going to get cute and virtual forehead slap u, but isn't ignorance ( or was that arrogance ??) conducive boys .

............ just like Doc and his "qigong will not heal your body and therefore we all should not cultivate qi but get sick and line up at a med counter" theory .........


nice logic oh buddhist one ............

u wanna chat btw ??
Blooming Lotus

[blooming tianshi lotus]

on the woman though............ just remember......... the choice to leave with the crew was hers, she went ( indicated to some measure of "religious " denominational intent) , decided that although she wasn't 100 % committed to their "doctrine" and respective treatments ( like cough cough......some certain lovely buddhists we won't mention at this moment debasing and rebuking qigong, leaving theeem with crusty qi and blockages and disease and continued sufferance and cumulative ill-healths including psychologies and behaviours and perspectives or engrams ........... like external vs internal maer martial synopsis take and respective everything else that goes with it including the right and freedom under the consitution to have it ......... speaking of laws and such ) , at the end of the day, the woman herself threw her hands in the air ........ and made a decision not to eat food or take water and not presumely being a half wit ( because they would've mentioned it in the case notes ) , knew that by doing that you are likely to bring about a death.....


Where does right and onus stop???? What do you want uuus to do......... hold you down and administer wuji ???????? .........


Funny funny babe u r !

BtL

[LeiYunFat]

GOD DAMNIT, woman! Get back in your cage! Although you're on my ignore list, your posts still reek.

Don't bother, I won't read it.

[plumflower_pm]

LYF, you ever play 'ding dong ditch" when you were a kid? Where you ring the doorbell to someone's house and then hide so you can see them answer it and get all frustrated?

You just did the forum equivalent of that.

[zachsan]

i'll take her off my ignore list. since at this point nobody takes her seriously anyway, i think i can just enjoy her posts for entertainment value, without feeling the need to respond.