gong fu vs. wushu

[goninjago3]

Maybe they just learn kickboxing and throw in a mantis strike here and there. A fomous teacher once said, "I didn't say cat's claw, i said tiger claw."

[bhodi]

sacred movements....

First off this is Arhats brother....just to bring everybody up to speed who wasn't around a long time ago when I kind of stopped posting on this forum.....Doc always lost me when he would take the forum offline to do some maintenance or whatever drastic change he made to his site. I have been reading and participating on this forum since the old days....


There is a whole different thought process that I have never really seen presented as far as forms practice that kicks around in my head. The reason it never gets brought up is probably because people are so afraid of connecting anything that does not seem manly or martial to their Gong Fu practice...or because it is just never really thought about, or whatever. But I have to say that I do think about it. And it is not the easiest thing to put into words but I am going to take a jab at it.....I hope reading this is worth the price of admission...

It starts in my pursuit of things that are sacred. I was raised Roman Catholic and so there were sacred objects and combinations of words that I was taught about from a young age. I began to realize that memorizing the Pater Noster was not nearly as important as understanding it. Understanding it is not nearly as important as feeling that it represents your beliefs, and then it representing your beliefs is not as important as putting your beliefs behind your actions. I began looking into expressions of that in other spiritual paths. There are so many examples of actions that are revered as sacred in all of the religions that it is mind boggling. But the thing that I have found is that if you examine any well developed system of movements you eventually come across a lot of common ground. The human body can only move so many different ways. The ways we can move are finite. In most cultures there are things that develop that seem to have no connection to the spiritual but this is just because we are neglecting to realize that all of these cultures recognize very little seperation from the spiritual at their roots. Now there is the ability to seperate these things. But in some cultures that seperation is not as wide as it is here (in the US), or has not happened at all. African dance that has been mentioned in this thread is not just about getting fit. There is alot of culture tied up in that and alot of spirituality if you look. Alot of Indian Dance has movements that actually represent the body taking on a three dimensional form of a written symbol for a sacred term or diety or divine concept. (we all are probably familiar with a particular staue of Shiva dancing in a ring of fire. One of the figures legs is rasied and the arms are in all kinds of positions. If that statue is situated in a certain angle to the viewer the figure makes the symbol for OM) Native American Dances are another example of this. For example the Sun Dance ( a pretty manly dance if you ask my opinion) Martial arts are just another way of moving the body. The intent at its conception was different. It was, as has been mentioned here before, to take out the opponent with as little time and effort needed. It was survival. wether preemptive or in defense. But eventually spirituality developed and became the thing that all things were filtered through. the martial arts that went through the Shaolin Temple underwent a change in that they became a part of a larger, spiritual system. It became the metaphor for Tamo's teachings. It became the step in thought that enabled people to see that they should be praying or involving themselves in a spiritual practice in everything they did. Not just sitting and meditating and or chanting sutras. Now there were specific movements that represented sacred practice. (the progression being...Hmmm? Why can't all movements be sacred if the intention is there?) The movements he taught may have had other applications that also met the situation but there was this philosophy somewhere towards the root of them being introduced. Health benefits, martial application, so on and so forth. But they were ultimately the expression of a philosophy. These forms are still that if you look at them from this perspective. Yes, they are all of the other things but....they are still a part of a spiritual system. They have been shaped by the philosophy of that system. The forms are sacred movements. they are sacred expressions of our bodies just as the sun dance is, or Traditional Indian dances are.

So for me, Shaolin Kung Fu is a sacred expression of myself. My potential in action must be reached in order for me to be honest with myself and others. I must master myself so I can show my respect for everyhthing and my love for everything. Shaolin Kung Fu is pretty much designed to push your body to its physical limits and beyond if possible. So to say practicing the forms is just about getting in shape is seperating it from its tradition. to say it is just about martial arts is seperating it from its tradition. The reason for learning the applications is and becoming the best martial artist you can be is not contained within martial arts itself in my case. It is contained within the philosophy that martial arts is a part of.

It pretty much has to be for it to be considered an art, otherwise there is nothing working on those physical movements. There is no mind involved and then it is just movements used to fight or defend. It is a dead thing that might as well be locked up in a museum with all the other dead art. People mimic it or do it the same way to preserve it not because they understand it. Like all the countless people repeating latin prayers or even the apostles creed or our father who don't even really think about what they are saying. They say it because they were taught to memorize it and then this is the part of mass where you say it. It does not penetrate into their life philosophy or into their actions.

Shaolin Kung Fu is Shaolin Chan Buddhism. This was one of the first things I learned in my practice under Shifu. It is one of the things that eludes so many people who train. People have a hard time really understanding what that means.
For alot of people training it kinda cracks me up when they get all into these debates about traditional verse whatever. Shaolin is traditionally a Spiritual system. Anything else is not traiditional. It is a martial art maybe or it is just a craft that seeks to do nothing but preserve someone elses art. All things that I don't personally have a problem with for other people but it just isn't for me...


I also think there was a division in defining the word applications. Shifu says that there are no applications I just punch you. Well but that is an application. Punching someone is applying your ability to punch and your kung fu training as well as your fight philosophy. That is his application. You do your technique and he punches your head no matter what you try to do about it. there are techniques to his punch that involve the positioning of the skeltal structure in order to maximize power and effectiveness and also to deflect whatever you have coming at him. You can break all those considerations down and call that application training. But this is not how most people use the word. They mean one guy punches the other guy blocks and counters or some other more lengthy technique. So if you mean that people learn forms and then don't learn how to apply it to a person it is different than saying people learn forms and don't learn the applications. It is subtle but it is creating a world of difference here in this thread. Or at least that is what I see happening.

Peace Guys!
Bhodi

[goninjago3]

TOO LONG OF A POST! PEOPLE HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO READ ALL OF THIS WITHOUT OUR BOSSES NOTICING. I GOT TO THE PART WHERE YOU WERE SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT ROMAN CATHOLIC.

[bhodi]

Sorry.....Maybe next time I will break it down into chunks. I think it was just becasue it was a long thread to read and then when I got to the end of it all I had alot to say.

Bhodi

[zachsan]

bodhi, i absolutely agree. when people talk about traditional gongfu vs. wushu, they are talking about a modern concept of "traditional" gongfu, versus the modern concept of what wushu is. neither of these have much to do with actual traditional gongfu or the literal translation of the term "wushu".

my own opinion is that both the false concept of what "traditional gongfu" should be - that is, merely a quick and effective way of dispatching opponents - and the modern connotation behind the term "wushu", are marketing ploys. perhaps a subtle difference between two similar systems was blown way out of proportion, or an entirely made-up separation was created; but it was done in order to sell memberships to schools.

throughout the history of gongfu, creators of schools and styles have been claiming false lineages behind their schools, in order to gain credibility (read: cash). this still happens a little today, but not near as much. instead, today, we have a new spin on the same old trick. masters call other schools "wushu" and call their own schools "traditional gongfu", whether or not they contain all the elements that gongfu traditionally contained, and whether or not the other schools really are only doing what they do for show. your run-of-the-mill wannabe badass kid is easily impressed by such tricks. even worse, this view of MA is passed on to future generations of martial artists, and they don't even realize that what they're doing amounts to advertising.

next thing you know, we get a thread like this one, where a huge issue is made out of a fake distinction. not that this thread isn't fun.

- zach

p.s. that's your opinion on the topic in the thread title, but what about the other 15 issues up for discussion in the thread?

[goninjago3]

WUSHU DOESN'T TEACH FIGHTING. MORTAL IS A BETTER FIGHTER THAN YANMING.

[zachsan]

.....

how can i argue with that? i guess i stand corrected.

[meattosser]

Interesting...

Zachsan: "throughout the history of gongfu, creators of schools and styles have been claiming false lineages behind their schools, in order to gain credibility (read: cash). "

Wait a minute though, aren't gongfu "schools" a relatively RECENT creation in China? As far as I understood, before the Twentieth Century, there weren't any kungfu schools like there are now. Back in the day, if one wanted to learn chinese boxing (traditional gongfu), they either joined the military, learned from a master, or trained in Shaolin Temple. It wasn't until after the 1900's that schools, or "kwoons", began sprouting as a business in China and different places around the world.


Mortal is a better fighter than Yan Ming? Does Mortal have any say in this?

[zachsan]

for all intents and purposes, when i say "school", in the context of china before the emergence of organized businesses calling themselves "schools", i'm talking about those freelance masters outside of the shaolin temple and the military who would train students. usually there would be some kind of compensation for this training, especially if the master was lucky enough to teach a particularly rich student.

- zach

[meattosser]

Ahh, I see. Interesting stuff.

[arhat]

No offense to Anthony but I'd pay money to watch that.

[bhodi]

Yan Ming

Thats ridiculous. Even Mortal knows that that is ridiculous...Led to a very quick scenario in my head though. I almost laughed as I envisioned it but then it was over before I could muster the proper amount of humour to induce laughter much less a single guffaw. I have never seen Mortal fight but I could tell that he probably doesn't worry too much about getting in a scuffle....even so....the thought of him taking on Yan Ming is purely assinine. Might as well put him in a tank with a great white...

[mortal]

I am at a loss for words!

lolo

My Uncle was the local tough guy in my area. He was famous from it. Anyway he was so famous that this guy that he knocked out was known just for that. He used to brag about it like it was something to be proud of. "Yeah I'm John, the guy Blacky knocked out". It always made me laugh. Sounds like my situation.

[Sir Didymus]

Yan Ming is mortal too. No reason he can't be defeated. Just like any other Shao Lin monk. I doubt it too that just anyone could beat them. But it's not impossible. Don't make it seem like that. There's no reason someone else who isn't a monk can't train just as hard and become better at it and then defeat one of them. I do doubt it though. Who has the time and lifestyle enough to train like a monk besides another monk? And if a monk beats a monk it's not much to talk about. They are both expected to be great fighters. If someone never heard of before comes along and beats them, then that's something. I think it's possible for Mortal or anyone else to beat Yan Ming or another monk. As long as they train hard enough like that. You are all human. Anything one human can do is possible for another human to do. I know nothing about Mortal. But give him some time and empty space to train and he can beat one of them. Maybe a younger monk. Since Yan Ming has already been training throughout his life. It's not fair. He got a headstart. But I think there must be someone in the world who isn't a monk but has trained just as long as Yan Ming.. and that person may be able to beat him. Just that no one is gonna setup the match.

[meattosser]

Oh well, I'm sure Yan Ming can be defeated by a non-monk. Perhaps a by a traditional master who has reached a very high level, (Gin Foon Mark? Or is he to old already?) I'm assuming Yan Ming is a pretty incredible fighter though, so it'd be tough one to decide. Why are we putting Mortal on the spot though? Ha. (On a side note, I wonder if Yan Ming is gonna read this thread and wonder what he'd think about it, ha.