gong fu vs. wushu

[zachsan]

these arguments have quite a way of running around in circles, don't they.

i think there's an underlying... uh, thing... here. i think that MA people are gonna train in their MA if it suits them, whether or not it's actually gonna work On The Street. i sure as hell am. i used to train in kenpo, and i found it horribly boring, so i moved to aikido. i found that horribly boring, so i moved to gongfu, and this suits me. i could give a rat's ass about how it works On The Street, i love it. but i think a lot of people feel like their entire MA training is somehow not justified if its effectiveness can't be proven.

and let me tell now, its effectiveness can't be proven. these arguments are gonna keep on going around, as long as martial arts exist, and nothing will ever truly settle them.

i think the underlying "thing" is that martial artists just love the martial arts. we do. but because of advertising in the 60's.... because of adolescent fantasies of people that aren't involved.... because of movies.... well for a lot of reasons, we find ourselves having to defend our passion to the rest of the world, and to each other. i mean really, how many of us go to class at night, practice a move, and think, "oh god oh god i hope this works in REAL LIFE". when you're training, none of that **** matters. when you're training, you're just training, that's it. myself, i'm thinking, "oh god oh god i hope my legs make it through this class."

so why do we bother ourselves with arguing about this **** that we don't really care about anyway? many of us, because we feel like we have to, to justify how we spend so much of our time. many of us (myself included), because we have underlying philosophies that we feel the need to impress on other people (i.e. "fighting will get you killed"). some of us (myself included, again), because we're at work, and we're very bored, and it's a guilty pleasure.

so, never stop rocking, and remember, fighting will get you killed.

- zach

[arhat]

Tsing- I'd rather use that box cutter on you while we're wrestling. If you were to knock me down I'd hope you'd do the sensible thing and get the fuçk out of dodge or give me a quick one to the head to make sure I'm out. How do you know who is my friend and who isn't? What they got and what they don't? If I knocked you down you can bet your ass I am out the closest exit I didn't come in through and I'm not stopping to shake hands and sign autographs. If we were mano a mano I sure as **** wouldn't jump on top of you. Gives you a lot of opportunity. I'd look for a weapon. Garbage can, crate, bottle, whatever. Maybe you're playing possum. The last thing in the world I am going to do is what I think you expect me to do. Maybe you're imagining me in those jujitsu tights, lol...in my younger days if you were still moving I'd kick you in the head 'til you were out. Look, it's just my opinion, benefitting from experience, I might add. You are right we can argue about it all day. The bottom line is things become crutches and you can't say groundfighting didn't become a lot of people's crutches. That's all...I don't advocate not training in it, but it needs to be robbed of some of it's mystique. These scenarios are endless, if we go on let's get some guitar solos and hot babes into it or we'll lose Zach's interest...

[zachsan]

babes? where?

[Tsingtao]

sign me up for the babes

Arhat-

First and foremost I'm not the type to fight. If I had too by all means I would and could. My first priority is to defuse the situation and as you say "get out of dodge". I think we're talking about two different scenerios. I'm talking about a 1 on 1 head to head scenerio no chance to get out.

Now to the box cutter thing........... Chances are if you had the box cutter (or any weapon) you'd try to use it even before we got that close to each other. If I couldn't get away I'd have to fight for my life. Now if you don't use the box cutter/weapon until your on the ground........ I'd like to know how your going to get the weapon out of its holding position (pocket or whatever) while your face is planted in the concrete and your arms are tied are behind you back?

Jui jitsu tights.................. Now thats funny !!!!!! LOL

[mortal]

Jujitsu tights! lolo Being that I know you that is a very funny visual.

[Sir Didymus]

I don't discuss martial arts with hot babes. I just help them with partner stretches.

Guitar solo? Depends on what kind. It's not normally my idea of sex/porn music.
.... That is what you had in mind with the hot babes, right?

[zachsan]

tsingtao -

this "1 on 1 fight, no chance to get out" scenario you talk about doesn't happen. there's always a chance to get out, or it's 5 on 1, or something like that. this kind of "but what if" thinking is rampant among various students of MA who are secretly begging to be cornered so that they can unleash their deadly skills. i'm not saying that you're one of these people, but that kind of reasoning is putting yourself in their company.

as far as how he could get it out... well, that's not something i would want to hang around and find out the answer to.

baojian -

that hurts, man. i'm going to quote one of my favorite movies, almost famous.

"Some people have a hard time explaining rock 'n' roll. I don't think anyone can really explain rock 'n' roll. Except Pete Townshend, but that's okay. Rock 'n' roll is a lifestyle and a way of thinking... and it's not about money and popularity. Although, some money would be nice. But it's a voice that says, "Here I am... and **** you if you can't understand me." And one of these people is gonna save the world. And that means that rock 'n' roll can save the world... all of us together. And the chicks are great. But what it all comes down to is that thing. The indefinable thing when people catch something in your music."

yeah, man. yeah.

- zach

[Sir Didymus]

I'm all for rock music. The best music to train to.. for me. Just think there is a time to tone it down a bit. But maybe you guys meant hanging out with hot babes? Rock music is ok then... I guess.

[zachsan]

man, the babes are a side-effect.

[Sir Didymus]

Side-effect of what? Babes are "it". Everything else is a side-effect. Martial Arts, don't do it just to be able to beat people. Not just to be able to protect yourself, family, and babes. Not just to meditate. Not just to do whatever else you use it for.. but also, do it to for the babes. It's good to "wow" them. And they want to have private classes. Then you just work on partner stretches. Such as, put her leg on your shoulder and..

[meattosser]

Damn, I don't reply on this thread within a few days, and all of a sudden a million new posts come out! Ha, Baojian, yer training kung fu for the wrong reasons, hahaha. As for the ground fight thing, complete Chinese martial systems have always had ground fighting techniques, it's just that it wasn't specifically separated from the standing techniques in a "wordy", descriptive matter. There were Shuai Jiao techniques in many systems, such as Northern Seven-Star Tang Lang, White Crane, Chen Taijiquan, bajiquan, etc... also, most, of not all chin'na techniques can easily be applied on the ground. That's why I like Gongfu so much. It's so complete. These fighting arts have developed for 5,000 years, they've been through unspeakably brutal wars, civil strife, barfights, backyard fights, challenges to the death, tournaments (that sometimes had people severely/fatally wounded). They've developed to the point that masters didn't have to rely on muscular strength. It's all about internal/external harmony. If you don't have internal fajing in your strikes or chin'na locks/throws, then you'll never understand just how a few palm strikes could cause very serious damage straight to someone's organs; sometimes it would take days, if not weeks, for that person to recover. The reason some people in the mainstream today emphasize ground fighting over anything else is because many of the MixedMartialArtists lacked completeness in their fighting arts, or they simply didn't have the patience or proper teacher to find out about those aspects. Also, sport karate had a massive impact on mainstream America, and since the "sport" karate fighters didn't usually train ground techniques in the past, (more of a point fighting thing) they were amazed when they saw Brazilian JiuJitsu.
Yeah, mixed-martial Artists are solid, overall fighters, but they still lack an understanding of internal power/fajing. Internal power is vital because it allows power way beyond muscle strength, (which starts deteriorating after 40 anyway); this makes size a much smaller factor in combat. Also, gongfu systems have a huge amount of knife and stick fighting methods, so if some nutcase has a box-cutter, you'll be pretty well-prepared anyway, (especially if you have your own little blade in yer pocket).
Oh yeah, about the music, yeah rock kicks ass. Can't go wrong with rock'n'roll. But my passion is Hip-Hop. Not that gay little bling-bling crap on MTV, but REAL, raw hip-hop. MC's like Saigon, Tonedeff, Dilated Peoples, the Stronghold Crew (Immortal Technique, Jean Grae, C-Rayz Walz, LifeLong, BreezEvahflowin, Poison Pen, etc.), KRS-ONE, Brother Ali, Slug, Murs, all that good stuff.

[fanzi]

Arhat

I do not train kung fu because I am preparing for some great big fight. Nor am I concerned about protecting myself at bars. I live a moderate life and rarely even get into verbal fights with people. We probably train for similar reasons. I love kung fu. Everyone on here does. I am not attacking you or your Sifu, nor do I want to champion application training as the greatest ****ing thing in the world. A more important question was why do forms if you don't know what the obscure looking moves are? Maybe not even to apply all of them, but just to understand the history of the movements you are doing. While I am not planning to be a ruthless street fighter, one reason I chose to study Kung Fu is because I thought it would be really cool to be able to totally kick ass. It's mostly hypothetical and training just makes me feel great. It seems that your desire to train is based on the meditaion aspect of Shaolin kung fu, right? If you want to kick ass, you'll just bust a cap in someone.

So, if you don't find any martial benefit from the forms, why not just do basics and then sparring? Are the forms practiced solely for meditaion and spiritual cultivation? (I'm honestly not being a smartass here)

[arhat]

fanzi-

First off, I hope my tone wasn't short in my last post. i don't give a **** what anybody says, to me you are still my older brother and I know Sifu never revoked anything on that score, and I always held a lot of respect for those who went before. Please assume that.

As far as forms training as opposed to just basics, the benefits of training forms is a mixed bag.

I don't think there is much more I can say about it. Why you would train them without knowing the intricacies of every move just seems obvious to me- you learn timing, soft focus, memory patterns of movements, you develop speed, agility, flexibility, fast twitch muscle development across a spectrum of movements, you develop explosive power, and if your primary focus is the meditational/spiritual, then you don't mind waiting for the explanations. I think the goal is to make the forms like breathing.

Shaolin gong fu never seemed obvious to me. Many of these monks hold the flower of their transmission and it's not for public consumption. My feeling is it's always been that way. Maybe it's bad, but maybe it's good, and maybe some people get caught in between.

[doc]

Shaolin gong fu never seemed obvious to me

Truly one of the most accurate knowledgeable statements of observation made on this forum.

It's not obvious. That's the beauty of it.

[zachsan]

not to mention how much it rocks.

- zach