We have lost the Iraq war

[lester1/2jr]

dogchow- I agree about the UN. The Sudanese people or the Libyan people are not represented by their leaders. The corrupt regimes from those countries are represented for sure, but not the people they claim to represent. So really "Libya" is a member of the UN but Libya is not.

Most ongoing conflicts involve muslims. I posted an article here once one about mongolia and one about xinjian, and the muslims hate the chinese. spit on the ground when they walk past. Where they there first? I'm afraid I don't know. Doc, do you know what happened with those guys packed into the buses???

[dogchow108]

Lester, i remember that article. it was actually a pretty good one.

check out this site:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com

[lester1/2jr]

I saw a debate between General Wesley Clarke and Bernie Kerick, who was the head of the NYPD and trained police in Baghada too. These two should have been our candidates instead of these ridiculous family legacy rich guys. I mean, if terrorism is supposedly our number one concern.

[dogchow108]

Porbably. i think there has been a pretty high concensus that we could have had MUCH beter candidates for both parties.

[zachsan]

well we definitely could have used better candidates, but while terrorism is a big concern, there's a lot more to leading a country than just dealing with terrorism, and i get the impression those guys don't run because they don't want to deal with that bull****. and i can't blame them.

i think a big problem here is what the left has come to represent in the international community. traditional liberal ideals like promoting racial and sexual equality, trying hard not to blow things up, and basically using government as a tool to help everyone out directly, that's all great to a point. but lately it seems like the left has just degenerated into being the devil's advocate for any and all causes in the world, even, to a point, islamic fundamentalism. israel is the Rich Military Government, the suicidal maniacs with bombs are the Resistance. so the extreme left defaults to the Resistance, and that sentiment trickles down even to smart people. that just doesn't make any sense to me.

[dogchow108]

zachsan, i have been trying to say that since 2000, and you just said it PERFECT

[LeiYunFat]

Indeed. I don't know, man, the left ain't what it used to be. I think there are way too many far-left representatives for the Democratic party. I feel that if I were to vote democratic, I would be voting for a few steps close to Socialism. Which is why the far-leftists should split from the more moderate mass of the Democratic party to form or strengthen the Democratic-Socialist Party, or what have you.

[dogchow108]

Well, whats happening in the left is pretty much like what is happening in the UN.

People dont realize, theres a very thin line between the fer, fer left of one country and the tryannically right wing of another one. I'll say it again- Bush had my support not because i am a right wing conservative, but because i am a liberal.

Its funny though, how things have changed-- now the left wing is the politically corect, oversensitive side. I remember before all this **** started and all i did was god-bash, the right-wingers always seemed the ones wetting their panties about what people say and do.

[LeiYunFat]

There should be another thread on political correctness.

Basically if you're going to go out of your way to be politically correct, it undermines the reason behind political correctness.


"blah blah blah blah, African-American, blah blah, blah, blah, Black."

"OH!!! OH GOD!!!! I'm sorry! I meant African American! *shtting themselves*"

SOmetimes you listen to some people and they have developed the perfect method of avoiding that horribly embarassing experience. They say, Afro-American=Black. So when they talk about Africans, they sometimes slip and say "African-Americans"...

Eh it's funnier when you see it in person.

[zachsan]

tell me about it. i once saw an article, i forget where, about the "growing quality of life of african-americans around the world".

[dogchow108]

Lol!

I always found that kind of funy too...i lived in South Africa for 7 years, and my grandmother is from Morocco--- if i became a citizen, would i be an African American?

Or maybe an Africisraeli American....

[Beginner's Mind]

Interesting discussion...

But it seems to me everyone's under the misapprehension that major decisions are made for political reasons.

They're not! It's all about money and oil.

You want to know why the US government (and the UN) panders to tyrannical leaders from the middle East, despite atrocious human rights abuses? Because they control the oil. Why did we invade Iraq, despite Saddam being one of the enemies of Al Quaeda (as he is virtually Sectarian, and they're fundamentalist Muslims) - nothing to do with the oil wells at all? Which could conveniently be piped through the recently conquered Afghanistan?

The top Al Quaeda members are known to be hiding in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Why doesn't the US invade those countries? Could it be related to the fact that the leading familes of Saudi Arabia have financed the Bush family for several decades?

The leaders of the Western countries don't care about the people they're meant to represent, they just want to make their fortunes, and instigate tax breaks for the extremely wealthy, i.e. themselves and their friends and families.

While there are certainly honest politicians with scruples at the roots of most political parties, as soon as they get a taste of power and wealth, they don't care who they scr*w.

It's just that in the West they have to conceal it better.

What American or British citizen has directly benefited from the war in Iraq? There was no way Saddam could have attacked either country. He didn't support Islamic terrorists as he was scared they would attack him. Other countries help Al Quaeda more. Other countries have even worse records of human rights abuses. It didn't make us safer, quite the opposite. So who benefited?

[mortal]

"They're not! It's all about money and oil."

I guess that is why oil is more expensive then ever.
I guess that is also why the Iraq's are using the profits from it to build up their own country.
That statement is typical left wing propaganda bomb throwing. Just the type of thing that will secure a republican white house for the next decade.

"You want to know why the US government (and the UN) panders to tyrannical leaders from the middle East, despite atrocious human rights abuses?"

Half the guys in the UN are dictators and skumbags. We don't pander to any of them. That is what Kerry and the other no back bone dems want to do.

"Why did we invade Iraq, despite Saddam being one of the enemies of Al Quaeda (as he is virtually Sectarian, and they're fundamentalist Muslims) - nothing to do with the oil wells at all?

This is the same naive attitude displayed by the dems that lost them the election. How could you think they have no connection? All of these middle east arabs are connected in their hatred of the super succesfull USA.

"Which could conveniently be piped through the recently conquered Afghanistan?"

Conquered? Try liberated! What color is the sky in your world?
Piped through to where? Dubyas basement?

"The leaders of the Western countries don't care about the people they're meant to represent, they just want to make their fortunes, and instigate tax breaks for the extremely wealthy, i.e. themselves and their friends and families."

You contradict yourself in that statement. If they don't care about anything but their own fortunes. Why would they give tax breaks to other wealthy fams?
Not only that but the rich pay a huge percent of the taxes in this country. Why should they be penalized for being succesful? These rich people you speak of with such resentment are the ones providing the jobs for the lower class in this country. Are you saying that everyone who is rich knows each other and schemes together as one. Democracy is about fighting to get ahead. Are you suggesting the rich should share their money with all of the have nots. Sounds like socialism to me.

"He didn't support Islamic terrorists as he was scared they would attack him."

Another contradiction. Why would they attack him if he supported them? Doesn't make sense.

"Other countries help Al Quaeda more. Other countries have even worse records of human rights abuses. It didn't make us safer, quite the opposite. So who benefited?"

Don't worry we will get to them. And hopefully they will have tons of oil.lolo
We benefited because we were NEVER attacked on our soil again since 9/11.
CAn you imagine the crap liberals would be talking if we were.

The bottom line is WE are the most succesful country in the world.
We did not need any more richs from selling some poor countrys oil.
We are already wealthy as can be. I could understand if we were in a depression and you thought we attacked for oil. At least the it would make sense. But were not. People are lining up to get into this great country.

[zachsan]

mortal's obviously one of those neo-hippies. anyway...

Originally posted by Beginner's Mind
Interesting discussion...

But it seems to me everyone's under the misapprehension that major decisions are made for political reasons.

They're not! It's all about money and oil.

i read the rest of your post after that, but i didn't need to. money is a unit of power. politics is about the balance of power. they aren't now and have never been separate.

[LeiYunFat]

Originally posted by zachsan

i read the rest of your post after that, but i didn't need to.

Gold. True as well.