Ice

[daodejing]

Ok, for starters, stop flipping out. Your just as likely to go mad by worrying about how safe your ba duan jin is as you are to go mad by practicing it.

I can only presume that she wasn't questioning the integrity of the monk in the video, but the integrity of learning qigong from a video. Most people need to study with a master in person. If your posture is not relaxed and correct, if your breathing is off, or if you do something stupid like hold your breath at any time during a qigong practice, you can cause your own qi to stagnate. This can be quite bad.

It is a well documented phenomenon that a small number of people treated with medical qigong in mainland china do go insane. Similarly some do go mad from improper practice. It happens. I beleive it's because there yi is weak and cannot control the heightened level of qi in there bodies, so there emotional mind (or heart depending on how you want to translate things) the xin, takes over.

There's an expression about madness and emotional control which relates the xin to an ape (like a big hairy furious orangutan) and the yi to a horse. It is said that in many people, the ape is riding the horse around. It doesn't take alot of imagination to realize how unruly a monkey riding a horse could be. What you have to do at the beggining of any qigong training, is tie the ape down to a post. This is one of the reasons for the initial emphasis on focusing at the lower dan tien.

If your acupuncturist tells you to stop doing qigong without a master's instruction, LISTEN TO HER. Ask her if there's a more basic qigong or meditation practice that she can teach you. Follow her treatment instructions.

[daodejing]

Oh and zach, I know you couldn't help yourself, but did you read that entire article from the skeptics dictionary? Some of the most hostile, angry, dribble I've ever read. There's a wealth of good research done to western scientific research standards which demonstrates the effectivness of acupuncture and chinese herbs on a variety of medical conditions.

And qi is not "defined as something which is empirically unmeasureable", hell it's not even really defined. Westerners are the only people I've seen try to define qi.

Seeing people go off like that about how terrible a system of medicine is because its not objectively proven.

It just makes me want to post a very logical paper I once wrote about the myth of scientific objectivity and the fallacy of "objective observation". But I'll spare you the philosophical dissertation, unless you ask nicely.

[daodejing]

As if it needs to be said, keep seeing your physical therapist as well as your acupuncturist, and if either one reccomends specific medical tests or excercises, do them.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by daodejing
Oh and zach, I know you couldn't help yourself, but did you read that entire article from the skeptics dictionary? Some of the most hostile, angry, dribble I've ever read. There's a wealth of good research done to western scientific research standards which demonstrates the effectivness of acupuncture and chinese herbs on a variety of medical conditions.

i used to think it was very hostile as well, when i considered myself a "rosicrucian". since then my views have changed, and remarkably, it doesn't seem so hostile anymore.

there is evidence demonstrating its effectiveness for things like pain, but certainly not the scope of ailments that most TCM practitioners claim it cures or helps.

Originally posted by daodejing
And qi is not "defined as something which is empirically unmeasureable", hell it's not even really defined. Westerners are the only people I've seen try to define qi.

well then, let's ignore the definitions that many western TCM practitioners have placed on it. how can you base an entire medical practice on something that you won't define? i could come out with a line of pills tomorrow that use something i call Ytrewq. what, you ask, is Ytrewq? well slow down, it's not defined. but please, don't let that stop you from buying my product. if you take my pill, and you get better after a week, it was because of Ytrewq!

you're very right to be skeptical of the concept objective truth. so am i. that's what immanuel kant books are for. science, however, although it may have the ideal goal of finding objective truth, really only deals with empirical truth. "empirical" differs greatly from "objective", in that it deals with that which can be tested and which tests can be reproduced. that's how the scientific method works. it doesn't give us absolute truths, but it gives us the most useful information we can possibly have, and that's the information that i want my medical treatment based on, not ancient philosophy (no matter how appealing that philosophy may be).

that's my short rebuttal to your short rebuttal. if we want to continue this, let's start a new thread. and yes, i'd be happy to read that paper.

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

I can only presume that she wasn't questioning the integrity of the monk in the video, but the integrity of learning qigong from a video. Most people need to study with a master in person.

about the russbo video of Shi De Cheng teaching, i can't have these movements wrong. I'm learning the same way of his students behind him but i saw his face and his students don't. Ba Duan Jin is not very complicated. I will never start Yi Jin Jing or other crazy Qi Gong things without a master. but Ba Duan Jin.... thinking about the raise on toes movement, how could someone doesnt do it properly? For the other movements (not on the shi de cheng video), can it be really dangerous?

If your posture is not relaxed and correct, if your breathing is off, or if you do something stupid like hold your breath at any time during a qigong practice, you can cause your own qi to stagnate. This can be quite bad.

I'm not that stupid... Is there other things? because i dont stop breathing at any time, i'm really relaxed, my posture should be correct.

About postures.. I'm relaxed, a lot of webpages are describing the horse stance and the other postures are feet together and with shoulders width apart. How could i dont do this postures properly? The movements, if my hand (in a raising hands movement) is moving too fast or not at the right position like a little too much in front of me. Could it be dangerous?

I'm doing ba duan jin for one month and i didnt notice some health changes...

There's an expression about madness and emotional control which relates the xin to an ape (like a big hairy furious orangutan) and the yi to a horse. It is said that in many people, the ape is riding the horse around. It doesn't take alot of imagination to realize how unruly a monkey riding a horse could be. What you have to do at the beggining of any qigong training, is tie the ape down to a post. This is one of the reasons for the initial emphasis on focusing at the lower dan tien.

Ok with my poor english, i didnt really understand that part of your post. What should I do with this expression? Take time to relax before a qigong practice and focus on diantian even if i still cant feel qi?

[doc]

The Ba Duan Jin video with the students is not complete. I don't think we posted the complete Ba Duan Jin yet. Steve was working on it.

From a statistical standpoint Chenzen, unless you have some sort of congenital abnormality in your back, such as an extra vertebrae, given time and rest, your back should eventually get better. The human body is amazing when it comes to healing itself, regardless of how many needles you put in it.

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

Yeah, ok for the back. Like i said I think my problem is solved. Acupuncture seems to work so let's stop talking of my back.

No the Ba Duan Jin video is not complete. There is only the two first movements. But the movements of this form of Qi Gong are simple. I readed a lot of variations. Here is some sites I readed to know the movements and I talked with you doc and xing jian to find the better way of doing the exercises.

http://www.ru.ac.za/societies/qi/baduanjin/

http://www.taichiuk.co.uk/baduanjinqigong.htm

http://www.russbo.com/gongfu/ba_duan_jin_images.htm

http://home.rochester.rr.com/rochchentaiji/baduan.htm

http://www.hologram.me.uk/chi-kung/

the site of xing jian

http://www.yiquan78.org/baduanjin.htm

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/esb.htm

Could I still be wrong and Ba Duan Jin becomes dangerous for me without a master?

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

Or teach me how there will be no way I could be wrong in the movements...

Doc, the video steve i think is working on, could we learn properly the form by this video or it's only a demonstration?

[doc]

All the videos are demonstrations. I don't put these things up so that people can learn from them; I don't believe that people can learn martial arts from videos. But, you're free to do as you wish.

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

Ok but you must agree that Shi De Cheng is not only demonstrating on the video but teaching the first movements. And if I understand when to breath in (raise hands, push a fist, push the finger, raise on toes, ...) and when to breath out(...) and I have detailed webpages or videos (demontrations). How could I be wrong? Could it still be dangerous?

And my old question not yet answered:
Should someone stop his Qi Gong practice during an acupuncture treatment? Does it have a effect on the treatment?

[xing_jian108]

In the video Shi De Cheng is teaching the first two of Ba Duan Jin to his students. He says when to breathe in and when to breathe out. "Xi Qi" or just "Xi" is inhale. "Hu Qi" or just "Hu" is exhale. I think that's not hard for you to hear him say and understand Xi or Hu. Only two words. And the others should be pretty simple to know. Exhale when you extend, inhale when you pull in.

You get the moves from videos or webpages. You see some are a bit different. So as long as you do them one way and not make up your own, you will be fine.

And about Qi Gong and acupuncture, most likely you should ask an acupuncturist.
They know the most about that question I guess.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

"And the others should be pretty simple to know. Exhale when you extend, inhale when you pull in. " Yeah that's what I'm saying so there should be no dangers of practicing it without learning from a master...

"And about Qi Gong and acupuncture, most likely you should ask an acupuncturist.
They know the most about that question I guess. "

I asked her and she said "I can't answer, Qi Gong is dangerous anyway..." ... what a great answer. That helps me a lot.. I'm gonna ask her again next time

[xing_jian108]

Ha, great answer. I thought she would know something about that. She had to study to become an acupuncturist. I would think she might know the first thing about Qi Gong.

[Shaolin_Disciple_8]

Yeah yeah.. she have 25 years of experience. I trust her knowledges. She is very good. What she told me was "My teacher practiced Qi Gong and the thing he was always telling me is that Qi Gong is extremly dangerous." She said also "I studied a part of Qi Gong, the technical part but not the forms". That's probably why she can't understand about Ba Duan Jin. Like I said before, i believe too that qigong could be dangerous like Yi Jin Jing and other exercises like those for the nervous system. I will never start those ones without a master to teach me. But I always heard Ba Duan Jin is safe. I even readed that you could do the movements without the breathing part and it wont be dangerous but good for health like any other physic exercise.

[doc]

Well, if your expert thinks that qi gong is dangerous, have you asked her why?