Shi De Cheng: wuseng, su jia di tz, real, fake....

[doc]

Well, not to get off of the Decheng topic, does this post mean anything to you?

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2268

[onesp1ng]

ahhh, the dish is served...

[Inevitable]

there you go, well that is definately gonna help explain things

[blooming tianshi lotus]

hmm..god bless America ha.

On the DeCheng monkship though, do we haave a direct translation for Su jia di tz is ??

Considering what the term 'shaolin monk'is starting to look like these days, it's no wonder ppl are defining theese guys differently. .. I was kinda wondering actually...

[hanguolaohu]

Sujia Dizi

"Sujia Dizi" translates into "layman disciple". There is another type of disciple called "chujia dizi" which is basically a monk-in-training. Chujia literally means to "leave from one's home or family" which is what monks do, they leave the regular world to devote their lives to prayer.

The problem with this Shaolin sujia dizi issue is there are so many Shaolin disciples out there, but very few authentic wuseng (martial or warrior monks). Many disciples claim that they are from Shaolin Temple and so people assume that they are monks. They claim the title wuseng even though they are not, and did not take the minimum of 10 vows to become a wuseng. This is understandable though, as if you are from the Shaolin Temple area, practiced Shaolin gongfu you're whole life, but are not a Shaolin monk, then what are you? A wannabe?

Even in China, the general notion is that if you study Shaolin gongfu, then you must be a monk from the Shaolin Temple. Any person who visits the Shaolin Temple in Henan, though, will realize that "Shaolin" is a bigger concept than just the temple itself. The temple is the symbolic nexus of Henan Province, which has developed many styles of gongfu. The temple feeds off the influence of the outside world and vice versa, as it harbored many criminals and generals over the years, who brought their real world martial arts experiences into the temple gates for experimentation and incorporation into the Shaolin curriculum.

Taking the vow of becoming a wuseng is a huge thing. Monks like Shi De Jian and De Yang take the "monk" title very seriously, and don't appreciate the younger generation who uses the title for their own gain, and once they get to where they want to go, pursue a "layman's" life while still holding on to the monk title.

In any case, the question whether Shi De Cheng is a recognized wuseng by the current administration perhaps is not important. Shaolin is a complex place, full of paradox and mystery. Most people would agree that he is one of the best traditional masters in the Shaolin area, and his actions and attitude are the embodiment of what a "Shaolin monk" should be. Like Bodhidharma preached, the internal is what matters, not the external. What is in a name or title is meaningless, only the heart represents truth.

Hanguo Laohu

[doc]

Well said. But, one thing about Decheng. He and Deyang are two of the few (Xinghong also) who have actually lived in the temple, before the monks and future performers were moved to the wushu guan.

It was pretty clear to me, when I visited Decheng's living quarters ten years ago, that he was living the same "monk" life that the rest of the monks were living in there. He was moved out of his home in the temple permanently when Yongxin ascended.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I dont want to insult you just now, so I wont, but is there an accessable copy somewhere of the vows the wuseng have actually taken? Have 'U'seen those Rich?? ...... We can all read a sutra and do some math but are those vows something the rest of us can see??

[doc]

I haven't seen them. I'm sure that they exist. When I took that beginning level of vows at the temple with Decheng and the group of monks he put together that day, I really don't remember them reading from a book. They did a lot from memory as I recall. It was only a twenty minute or so ceremony, but, still impressive nonetheless.

Now, what I did, is, from what I'm told, the same thing that Decheng and the other wuseng did. In fact, just about all of the students that "wear orange robes" and are referred to as "monks", don't currently go through this ceremony, nor did many go through it in the past.

It's all kind of bizarre, when you think about it.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

... u haven't huh.. I reeeally don't wanna hurt you here but considering what they're saying about Decheng you wanna tell us the vows that ýour' ceremony entalied ?? . .. and about your story...That kinda stuff gets interesting to us lay ers

[doc]

It's in the Fugue section, under Discipleship, I think.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

not even close . all I could find was the 'how to become a shaolin monk' thread ( and some really cute Doc -love comments btw ) , and nooo vows .... so reeally Richard... the promises you made to live by?????.... I jus dont believe for a minute you dont have other thoughts about it ....... ......whatever...........

so no vows then. and ppl say Decheng was never indocrinated and you and Gene are shaolin gods nonetheless ...... well Oookay. i'm just going to agree.
.
Sheesh. No wonder ppl get confused.

[doc]

It's in the Site Content / Fugue / Vows section, found via the java menu.

You can also use the russbo Search engine, also in the java menu. The 'rules" are in there.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

So I found the thread aand I read the code which said sweet little to nothing..

That's not clear at all and it does not give any more than a reeally basic outline of concepts to expand on.
From what I can tell, most of what we did get there is designed to do little more than confuse the hell out of anyone reading it enough so they'll feel like they actually got some information.
If you don't want to share then I don't really want to get into it either.
Thx.

[onesp1ng]

Here they are for everyone's perusal.... I'm especially fearful of the last Buddhist monastic discipline: never make a fool out of yourself!?! That's going to be difficult.

-------------------------------

SIX COMPONENTS OF A FORMAL PROCLAIMATION

1, INVITING THE SAGE: The master and the audience(monks) stand up and recite in chorus the following: We respectfully invite your presence and welcome you with flowers, disciple so and so has been in search of Buddhism wholeheartedly but without any avail while in fact Buddhas, masters and monks are all over. Recitation is done three times each time followed by kowtowing sentence by sentence with the master at the leading.

2, CONFESSIONS: Then the master call the believer to be and the latter answered by his name. In the past I have committed many sins and that is because I was greedy, easy to get hateful and idiotic. My words, acts and ideas were wrong in many respects since I was born. I want to confess all that.

3, THE FORMAL PROCLAIMATION: The master calls the believer to be and the latter replies his name. My body and my life belong to the Buddha. My body and my life belong to the Buddhist Masters. My body and my life belong to the Monk. (repeat three times). I swear to the Buddha, the Master and the monk(thrice).

4, SAY PRAYERS(SWEAR): The master calls the believer to be and the latter answers by name. The living creatures are numberless, I vow to persuade them to follow the Buddhism. The worries are endless I vow to get away from. Buddhism is measureless I vow to learn; Buddhist dharma is supreme I vow to follow.

5, INDICATION OF GONGDE(KINDNESS AND VIRTURES DONE FOR OTHERS AND NEVER THINKING OF ANY RETURN OR BEING REMEMBERED): In the Guanding Scriptures it is said that as from the moment as being proclaimed a believer one is always escorted by thirty-six gods of benevolence and their numberless relatives to keep him in peace and happiness. It is said in the Jiao Liang Gong De Scriptures that if the three thousand boundless universes were full of Buddhas as the paddies and bamboos and human beings are provided for with support, they would live twenty thousand years. After passing away of all the Buddhists, temples are built with flowers. It is more fortunate yet not as if there are human beings. The human beings should be purged from the bottom of the heart and become believers of Buddhism. That is the real GONGDE.

6, GIVING : All GONGDE should be given to all the flesh so that everyone could go living in the other pure world(chanted by disciples sentence by sentence at the leading of the master). GONGDE of the Proclaimation is extremely benevolent . The boundless fortune is all giving away. Wishing all the indulging living creatures go the numberless brilliant Buddhist temples without any exception..



C, MASTER XIE HONGYI`S TRIRATNA VERSE(with slight additions or omissions)

FIRST, RESPECT THE BUDDHA: Regard the Buddha statues as genuine Buddhas always in a dignified manner. Never make fun or lie down or squat in face of worshipping as if in presence of a friend from the overseas when you cannot be informal, not even let alone to face a Buddha. Worship should not be done in haste, one should rather do less worships. The worshipping furnitures and utensils shall always be kept clear. Worshipping should be before noon time and never later than that when it is easy to induce trouble. Because Buddhas are prohibited to take any food after noon time. Not even fruit. Offers to Buddha should be human edibles and should be fine cooking and never offer ingredients or canned food. Flowers offered must be fresh and the water should be replenished from time to time. All incenses and candles shoud be burnt each time. Buddha pictures should be glass-framed and statutes enshrined or covered and kept clean. Never do any of the following in front of a Buddha: blow wind, (drying clothes should only be done to the side of a Buddha), poise in slanting, never water flower before the Buddha with urine. Never use urinal if the Buddha is worshipped in your chamber, nor be barebody or in shorts., one must cover up oneself completely while sleeping.

SECOND, RESPECT BUDDHISM: Buddhism dharma is the mother of all the Buddhas and the teacher of Bodhisttva, i.e.: the Tathagata relics . As described in the JINGGUANG scriptures where there is a Buddha there should be respect from the Buddhist followers; that everywhere there are scriptures over all the world. And from the sky and human beings to the AXIULO all should be worshipped. And that all Buddhas and all Buddhist Amio Bodhisttvas are from there. So you have to be most pious. Master OUYUN said that when reading the Buddhist scriptures it is as if you are seeing the living Buddha. When you close the scripture books it is still in front of you and you read it again and again and never forget it , sleeping or awake. In this way you learn. Always hold the Scriptures in both hands instead of a single one and do that as high up as to your bosom . Never salute or bow with Scriptures in hand. Close the scripture book when you leave but never fold any part of the page to help you to remember.You can put in a piece of paper instead. Do not make any marks or alterations on the scriptures book or dirt it. A broken or damaged scriptures book should be repaired but not burnt.

THIRD, RESPECT FOR THE MONKS: Trinatna depend on monks, therefore any body cut clear-headed and in a Kasaga is regarded a Buddhist disciple and he shoud be respected wihout any discrimination and no difference between those having broken and those holding up the dharma.. either virtuous or not. Everyone is a teacher for the Budddhist. In talking always self address yourself a follower. It should be the same in worshipping. Buddhists from any section of the religion must be respecful and honest to be beneficial. So Master YINGUANG said the Buddhist dharma can be sought only through respectfulness. As far as the respect goes the sin would be prevented and happiness and wisdom come along. The more the respect the less the sin and the more the luck and the wisdom. Without respect with blasphemy, sins will increase and luck with wisdom decreases.Therefore one wishing to be the proclaimed will encounter a unprecedented situation with full respectful mind to listen to the Buddhist voice and he will become lucky and wise. I wish all fellow disciples encourage one another in our behaviours. Being proclaimed one must understand what the masters explains and if one does not understand or did not get it clearly could not be proclaimed until the master repeat it to give him a clear understanding. So the master must have a very clear correct understanding of the scriptures.The above guidelines of old master YINGUANG and master HONGYI are quoted to declare myself and for all our fellow followers to learn. What is most important for a believer is that he comes back home like the son back to his mother or repent. Because he deviated from the Buddhist dharma and now comes back. There are two kinds of conscious abbots. The first kind are very conscious act instinct like Buddhas. Dharma means norm i.e. norms of virtues and morals observed by living creatures. Monks mean peace and quiet i.e. the hearts are taintlessly clear. The abbot in a Buddhist temple. Buddhas mean all the statues there, dharma means all Buddhist Scriptures. Monks are those away from home living in a Buddhist temple including those cut clear-headed and in a Buddhist cape. Furthermore Buddhas are everywhere including all Buddhas, Dharma is all the norms observed by all the monks everywhere . Monks are all the sages everywhere in the world including all the worldly monks. Therefore believers should not say that he follows master so and so but rather he follows all masters and monks, from Buddhisattva and arhats down to Buddhist novices. This point should never be misunderstood which if so would lead to a situation the important is forgoten and and the minors remembered. And forget the public interest for personal ones. Any master in witness of the proclaimation is but one to be a witness.

Therefore the teachings of masterYINGGUANG and master HONGYI are quoted to declare myself.

ESSENCE OF THE PROCLAIMATION: From this moment as proclaimed a Buddhist believer, one will never follow any other religion; from the moment as proclaimed to follow the Buddhist Dharma one will never follow doctrines in any other claasic books; as from this moment of proclaimation to follow monks, one will never follow any evil ways. It is said in the Fangang Scriptures as an additional admonish that the five hundred arhats worshipped by some people are not even as good as an ordinary monk. It is important that a monk learned that anywhere should never say anything irresponsibly. This is strictly probibited by Buddhism. It is said in Fanguang Scriptures that the monks , nuns in the temples and those not living in the temples are really overcautious. It indicates but a follower must be very very careful. The above records examples of common errors, so all our fellow followers could better observe the dharma. so that one gets further away from sins and closer to fortunes. In a word, Buddhist dharma can be learned only through respect. No short way. Let us encourage one another in our endeavours.

FIVE ADMONISHES TO OBSERVE : Never kill any living creatures, one lives a long and healthy life; never steal or rob any assets , one gets properties and wealthy; never be licentious or wicked, one gets ones lover and repayed; never tell lies, one is honest and trustworthy; never drink wine so one gets cleverer and wiser.

TEN BUDDHIST MONASTIC DISCIPLINES: Never kill any living creatures; never steal or rob; never be licentious or be wicked; never talk empty words; never be a doubledealer; never curse; never be covetous; never hate or bear grudges against any one; and never make a fool of yourself.

[Maestro]

onesp1ng do u teach english in japan? or something like that

if your the one who does that could u pm me