gong fu vs. wushu

[zachsan]

anyway, seriously. were applications taught traditionally? this is a purely academic question, if anyone could point me towards any reading i'd be grateful.

- zach

[doc]

Well, look at it this way.

Decheng knows one hell of a lot of applications. I know this, because he's been teaching me them.

So, did he learn them by doing each form 10000 times? Or did his master teach him those?

He once told me that the "secrets", which ended up being the applications, were only taught to disciples. When I became his disciple he started teaching me these things. So, my opinion on this matter, is yes, they have been taught, from master to disciple.

[goninjago3]

Decheng learned the applications from the book by Jwing-Ming Yang. "Shaolin Long Fist".

[goninjago3]

Just kidding DOC. The funniest line you had in shaolin Ulysses was "every 6 months I return to shaolin, get that SPIRITUAL BOOST" Awesome!! Like it's shaolin is an energy shake at a rave.

Li Peng says the same thing though. If you practice the forms enough eventually you are going to figure out the applications. I don't know if anyone has seen the ned DVD made by Yanlei in London but it kicks ass. He is an animal!!! It shows traditional basics but then shows his whole training method. He is not doing any applications. just kicking the bag a million times. And he is an amazing fighter. My point is that according to what Li Peng has taught me, traditional shaolin fighting does have so many fancy moves and secrets. He say that you traing basic techniques like side kick, front kick, round house, front punch. You train then to be very fast, flexible and "heavy" as he puts it. Your body has to be very pliable and adaptable. Than you need fighting experience to develop timing. He gave be his opinion about wing chun and he said it was bull****. He says, "You cannot play these kind of games with me, i just kick you" He says he doesn't even see or care what technoque you are using, he kicks right through you technique.

[mortal]

When you have been training since you were 3. Then fighting could seem that way to you.

Wing chun works. I think I have proved that many times. A great side kick works too. That is why I train in both. Wing chun is all technique and internal. Reflexes and timing.
Shaolin is all forms and external athleticism. At least the traditional shaol;in moves are applicable to fighting. And it looks really cool. Why do people think wushu looks better. I think the traditoinal looks way better

[zachsan]

well doc, not the most historically sound evidence, but then again, we are talking about gongfu. and everyone knows that when it comes to gongfu, there's no such thing.

i've found, in all of my albeit brief first- and second-hand experience, that once you've been training in a particular style, its specific techniques become fairly intuitive. for instance, when i took kenpo, while there were a few minor differences, techniques to counter a shoulder grab and a wrist grab were pretty similar. make the other guy's arm a target; do an arm break of some kind; follow it up with something nasty to the head. also: step behind the other guy's foot; drop your weight; stay in control. all the techniques were made up of basic principles like these.

in aikido: spin out of the line of fire; keep spinning while you use the momentum to take control of the other guy's weapon; spin his weapon (fist, knife, whatever) in some kind of unnatural way that makes him collapse.

of course, to master these, i would have had to stick with each school for much, much longer. but i do have a point here, believe it or not. that is, any given style of MA has certain principles, and if you've trained and trained hard in that school (through forms, iron palm, anything), those principles just become a part of you, and you don't need any special specific practice to pull of certain techniques. you could show possible techniques to the uninitiated and amaze them at your intimate knowledge of the human body; but to you, it's no big deal, you just made them up on the spot.

certain schools teach a whole collection of different general approaches (like five animals styles), while some stick to a more all-encompassing philosophy (wing chun, aikido). but my point is that, in my opinion at least, if you practice a form 1000 times, it's not so much that you "figure out" the applications, as much as that you don't need to figure out the applications, because they just flow from you on the spot.

this really has nothing to do with gongfu vs. wushu, but we were talking about applications and i thought i'd give my thoughts on it. sorry, hehe...

- zach

[arhat]

gonin- yan ming says something similar. Many times when I've held pads for him he'll talk about something we've seen, like Golden Cock Coming to Roost While Carp Flips Loudly.

He says, "I just punch you, one punch. Lights out. You can not defend."

[goninjago3]

IT MAKES SENSE. I LIKE THIS THEORY. IF YOU ARE IN A FIGHT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO FIGHT FOR A LONG TIME ANYWAY. JUST HIT THE GUY AND GET IT OVER WITH. SURE I THINK CHI-NA, WING CHUN, ETC. ARE VERY INTERESTING AND INTELLEGENT FIGHTING CONCEPTS. THEY ARE GOOD FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND COULD BE EFFECTIVE IF TRAINED PROPERLY AND SERIOUSLY. WE JUST SHOULDN'T BE SUPRISED WHEN OUR TEACHER SAYS "I JUST KICK YOU", BECAUSE THIS IS THE TRADITIONAL BELIEF.

[zachsan]

it's true that sticking to the basics is the best way to end a fight. gongfu has a long history of "what if" situations, for when things get sticky and aren't that simple anymore. but concentrating on these at the expense of training a good, solid punch or kick, is an equally old mistake.

- zach

[arhat]

well I can tell you one thing, if you're in a fight with a lot of other people, you don't want to get tied up in long technique exchanges with one opponent.

[goninjago3]

TRUE, GOOD POINT. PROBABLY A VERY NECESSARY CONCEPT IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN WAR WAS FOUGHT AT A CLOSE DISTANCE.

[zachsan]

haha, if you're alone in a fight against a lot of people, i don't think it's even referred to as a "fight" anymore. i think the technical term is an "ass-kicking" or something like that.

- zach

[mortal]

It shouldn't take more then a second to pull off an application. Unless your slow and stiff. Very stiff.

[zachsan]

that very strongly depends on what application we're talking about, and how smart your opponent is.

[mortal]

The speed of the tech stays the same. If I can't apply it instantly I change to another tech.