Shi Yan Ming????

[Hippo Foo]

Hehehehe rubbing pretty girls legs... Yan Ming is a ladies man!

To answer you question, Chicken. Actually before students join Yan Ming school they sign a waiver saying that USA Shaolin Temple is not responsible for any injuries caused by the student or within class. HOWEVER, according to US state law (sort of like a good samaritan law), Yan Ming is required to provide medical service to the individual to his ability until a qualified medical physician or someone who has a higher ability than he does arrives to take over from there. At the time of the accident, Yan Ming is deemed a caretaker of the individual (student/teacher relationship). I don't think Yan Ming was particularly concerned with money to pay for hospital bills as in his waiver he states that he is not responsible for the individuals physical injuries. I am sure over the course of those 12 years he has understood why people sign that piece of paper. I am also sure he understands health insurance (given he has children and a wife in America) Maybe he did not know, but Yan Ming would actually potentially lose more money by doing nothing than trying to do something. The tricky situation here is that, Iron Cross, fortunately, did not suffer any long term injuries and was able to pull out of the situation. So I guess Yan Ming kind of got a freebee here. All in all, Yan Ming made a bad judgement call.

You have to understand, Chicken, that Yan Ming has created a corporation of a school. They have financial and legal insititutions set forth for this corporation. He is not a "warrior" monk who has just stumbled his feet in America. He has been here for a very long time and is a citizen (he must have learnt something from his citizenship test about how this country is run).

I'm not sure why he did not call 911 that day, but what I know is that he is a flawed man... like everyone else... when you put him up on a pedestal and grab to every word, if he does make a mistake... MANY people will have to suffer for it....

I can't say for Dengfeng... I am sure Chinese hospitals are pretty sketchy if you don't have money... China is more and more about the money than healthcare....

[Iron Cross]

So, are you saying the first responsible thing to do is to worry about how much helping an injured student might cost him and not the immediate care of said student?

As sick as it may sound I can now completely imagine yan ming looking down at my convulsing body and wondering how this might hurt his reputation or if it may cost him alot of money. Just that statement alone is enough to see how truly sick he is. Though I cant be sure of what he was actually thinking, I do know what he wasnt. He wasnt thinking "get this boy some medical help" he was thinking "Continue practicing hes fine"

But like I've mentioned before I saw there guys get hurt and receive nothing in terms of help from him. On the flip side I've seen good looking girls get a minor bruise or sprain and would be given massages by yan ming and then later given honors at the end or during class for how strong they were to endure such pain. Maybe he was just trying to pump up their self confidence or maybe he just likes rubbing pretty girls legs and hitting on them.

[Chicken]

Hi Hippo,

keeping it real around the warriors is a really hard thing... they have amazing abilities, and wisdom in dimensions which I realise will take me probably a lifetime of contemplation to achieve. But, practically, outside China (and in many cases even outside Dengfeng and their home towns) they are scary... I'm responsible for one - I love him to pieces - but what he might get up to if I wasn't providing guide-rails, I dread to think.

You know, I suspect its $$$$.

The only time in China when I was around when one of the people we were responsible for needed emergency hospitalization (popped achillies), SHX still consulted me as to whether it was OK to take the individual to hospital. At the time they realised his injury was serious, they knew that $$$s were gonna be involved and that someone was going to have to bank roll it, hence the decision rolled up to me.

Does this apply in the US too? I mean, its a no brainer that you will take your child to the hospital... but picking up the tab for someone else's child to go to hospital is another thing.

Doc how does it work? Could Yan Ming be held responsible for the medical bills? I realise he could get sued... but not sure if its a practical thing. Its hard to justify to parents, that they pay for their child to recover in a first rate medical facility for 48 hours, when evidently you might be responsible for putting their child in that place to start with.

Do you ensure that all students have medical insurance in the states? (- Would that not have the same end?)

Chicken

[Hippo Foo]

Hi Chicken

I think I have an unhealthy obsession with this topic.

But just wanted to say that you are somewhat true in your statemnts.

Yes, Yan Ming's students are his lamb. He has trained them to trust him in everything he says even if they are illogical. From what I understand of what in these accidents, everyone was looking to Yan Ming on what to do. I think if this happened on the street, students would have reacted and called an ambulance. But because this happened at the school, all the students drew a blank. Its actually quite amazing how strong the control Yan Ming has over his students. They really give themselves up for him (emotionally, financially, etc). Its amazing how bad leadership can make a bad situation worse.

Perhaps if you were an immigrant of this country and had very little access to the American institutions would I allow you to get away with an act as to not know how to call 911. Yan Ming has been in this country for about 12-15 years. He has made a corporation out of his school. And you are telling me he does not know how to call 911? He seems to be able to go get his US citizenship, install credit card machines in his school, order and make branded clothing, open branches in 3 other countries.... just fine.... And you are telling me he has no concept of a hospital????? Probably you don't k now him but he is probably one of the most "AMERICAN" driven person I know. He seems to utilize everything that America has to offer in his day to day life. I am sure if his son or daughter was sick, he would bring them to the hospital.... its SIMPLE common sense.....

Hopefully that will be it... hehehehe

[Chicken]

I'm with you Doc... but there's another difference: have any of you been to the hospital in Dengfeng? Would you want to go there if you were struck down with heatstroke in Dengfeng?

We've been through this before: the serious lack of management and accountability in the medical system in Henan. If I collapsed from heatstroke over there, I'd prefer to take my chances on them bringing me round. Probably less risky, in that you're likely to recover from the heatstroke if you have people around you who are used to dealing with it, but not from the hepatitis / HIV infection that they might transfer to you if they take you to the hospital.

Of course if I got heatstroke in the UK, I'd expect someone to call an ambulance to take me to Accident and Emergency.

Moral of the story:

It is a mistake to expect the warriors to respond to an emergency as we would.
When you sign up for a school, investigate if the people supporting the warriors (even other students) will take responsibility in first-aid situations.

That is where I think the failure lies in this instance... nobody said to Yan Ming, "What the f*** are we doing here?" and got out their cell phone and called 911.

Was he not insured? Its one of my biggest worries that SHX might have enough command to over-rule local common sense in a first-aid situation. I remind him constantly that it is worse in the UK to not call an ambulance if someone gets hurt/taken ill, than to do so.

Someone always sits in on his children's classes for precisely this reason, and there's enough mutual respect between SHX and his adults that they would take over in first-aid situations, and I talk about this to them. They realise his limitations.

I mean... he is still trying to understand how the hospitals here are not hotels / free boarding houses... "What you mean I can come and stay here for the night and I don't have to pay?... Wah, that's really good!"

At the same time, SHX will not let me get more than 10 yards from wherever we are staying in China in the summer, without buying me a bottle of water, and replacing it as soon as I suck it dry... its not that I won't do this myself, but he's just so concerned about the possibility of me getting heatstroke that he gets there before me.

This is probably gender specific, I doubt he would do this for one of his pals or a male international student - its expected in China that you will put your health needs above everything else - the rest of your family is depending on you.

Prevention is better than cure wherever you are.

Chicken

[Iron Cross]

I'm going out on a limb here but I think if an american student died of heat stroke at a chinese martial arts school, wherever it was in china, it would be the worst possible publicity for the school. In fact I think they would treat the foreign students extra special so they would report an awesome experience which would attract more foreigners and their foreign dollars.

In any event I'm not sure how we got back on this subject. I thought we were talking about something else.

[doc]

The whole Yan Ming situation continues to draw everyone doesn't it?



So who is marketing that Yan Ming defected?

He did. As it's been told, it was part of the plan. And, there's a reason why he draws controversy. Which, is one clue to your question about the "legality of monks"...

However, the way Yan Ming treated him through the incident is exactly how they would have treated him in Dengfeng:

Not true. Not all schools would do that for one. And, for two, there's a difference between Dengfeng and New York. A big difference, that dictates a different approach.

They're called lawyers.

[Iron Cross]

Well, I'll tell you what i told all those psychos at shaolin. THIS IS NOT CHINA!!! If I was in china I wouldve been a bit more cautious about what i did, what I ate and who I associated with. Just like if Im in saudi arabia I wouldnt walk around talking about the absurdity of religion and how I'm an atheist. However, in the US I am fully free to do so and if someone tries to kill me for doing so they go to jail for a nice long time. So, maybe in china its cool to leave someone dying in the corner but not in mainland USA.

In terms of who presses the he defecated thing. Well that would be himself and his management. It was featured in a documentary about him complete with re-enacted dramatic escape scenes. Its also on their website I believe. He also talks about it quite frequently.

[Chicken]

The whole Yan Ming situation continues to draw everyone doesn't it?

I have to concur with Doc, where do you differentiate between Yan Ming and the marketing. I mean did Yan Ming really defect? The guys in the UK, US, Germany, France and other Shaolin destinations, have all chosen to pursue their paths internationally. Close to a million other mainland Chinese choose likewise each year. Does travelling so far from "your" temple make you any less a monk / a defectee? Apparantly not, as far as the Temple is concerned. Legally all it implies is that you have emigrated (legally or otherwise).

Can you legally be a monk?

So who is marketing that Yan Ming defected? Does it enhance the Yan Ming entity? Time for a bit of re-packaging?

How much control does Yan Ming have around how he is marketed? I mean he might be in the West but what perception does he have of how he is perceived through western eyes? Once we get stars in our eyes, we are not balanced in our oppinion of them, if we promote them in that vein its no wonder they start to look warped. Happens to many of the celebrities, and it drives many of them to drink too.

I am still sympathetic to Iron Cross, he was fortunate not to bear physical scars.

However, the way Yan Ming treated him through the incident is exactly how they would have treated him in Dengfeng: they train in much hotter temperatures than 110F, and if someone passes out from heat exhaustion or otherwise, they wait for them to come round... if they don't come round after probably 30 mins or so, they are either dead or they get them to a hospital. But can we blame Yan Ming, personally, for behaving consistently here?

You don't have to train when its 110F, I'm sure Iron Cross will think twice before he does so again, and I suggest anyone training with the Shaolin thinks likewise.

You might still hold Yan Ming responsible tho, because, well, under his management there should have been a provision that someone took over and called an ambulance. Are USAST people too in awe / too frighten to over-rule Yan Ming even when what he instructs goes against good sense, when its too hot to train safely, when lives are threatened?

It looks that way... and this is what I would be scared about if I was training with Yan Ming.... does the training facility have a gas oven?

Hi JackWolf

Its quite normal to call the person instructing you Shifu, like we used to call a School teacher Sir or Miss.

I'm not sure about your theory on how the whole Shifu relationship works, it doesn't work like that in practise in China. They chop and change their shifus according to their spiritual needs, and shifus expect their charges to do so.

Its no different to having a mentor in the western sense. You allow someone to mentor you as long as their influence suits you. If you find it ceases to benefit you or you find someone else who promises to have a more meaningful influence on you, you move on.

Shi Heng Xuan has learnt from many masters along the way... and many of them like to think that they are his Shifu (go figure!), but only one spotted his talent, took him to Dengfeng... gave him his life. He may have taught him for only a year when he was just 10 years old, and then handed him on to Yan Zhang, a wuseng that could truly do justice to his talent. Heng Xuan is eternally grateful to this original Shifu, and continues to support him and respect his counsel 16 years later.

Heng Xuan's also got a lot of time for Yan Zhang. We are presently very happy for him, he's just become a daddy.

Chicken

[Hippo Foo]

you said: "if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for." well, from what i have read about him, it sure seems as though he thinks of himself as a "Chinese traditional teacher."

Where did you read that? He talks about his past in China and in Shaolin but doesnt say he is a traditionlist at all. I mean this article was written in the NYtimes about him. Actually I think by his own loyal student who identifies that he is not a typical monk......

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/ny...Martial%20Arts

so, what are you learning now? traditional gongfu or wushu? what does yan ming teach anyhow?

I don't know what Yan Ming teaches actually..... Its kind of a mixture of a bunch of random stuff. I think he just takes whatever and dumps it together in some routine.... I know there are only like 3 or 4 traditional "Shaolin" forms taught. I don't think anyone clearly knows what "Shaolin" is because of the Cultural Revolution, Communism and just general corruption... so I can't even say. I am not even sure if Yan Ming taught those forms or if he just recycled it from past teachers who taught there... that or the trip to China were apparently many students learnt forms from other Chinese masters....

you broke bread with them before? please, do tell....:-)

Yeah that was kind of a generalization. I'm sure you can some how over analyze some statements in the scriptures where they say not to be humble. But GENERALLY the scriptures teach that we should be humble... of course there are exceptions... blah blah blah... but thats useless to argue..... This whole forum goes back and forth about how a monk "should" be. And that seems endless so there is no point in going into. In my opinion, Yan Ming is not a traditionlist...... but thats subjective....

[Iron Cross]

Yan ming also thinks of himself as a shaolin warrior monk on a higher level than most other monks. It doesnt make him one.

The big problem with alot of his students is they actually are in constant conflict with their own thoughts on his actions and the place in general. Most just feel trapped an incapable or expressing them to anyone there without the fear of being ridiculed or shunned by the others. To most there they have made that place such a big part of their lives that the prospect of being an outsider is almost unbearable.

I talked to maybe a dozen or more people after i left there and they all acknowledged that they knew yan ming slept around, drank way too much, over charged everything and was incredibly egotistical about damn near everything. they also told me they tried not to think about any of it and didnt want to get involved. Ironically it was their combined lack of involvement that produced the environment where thee things could run rampant. When I was there I became the one critical voice over the insanity and was kicked out for it. I even asked folks to speak up with me since they all agreed with me. None did. I think they all feared the reasons I just said. That they would be labeled as outsiders or just kicked out.

As for what he teaches in terms of style. He claims is the only authentic shaolin school around but in reality everything is just watered down wushu. In level 2 there are a few sanda kicks and punches too. All the basics are wushu basics. Everything from your lotus kick to fanyaos and slap kicks. The first 3 forms you learn there are basic wushu forms. The first called chuji quantao is actually wubu quan modified. the second called yiluquan in a basic compulsory long fist and is the 3rd form called erluquan. Though that form has all the more technical movements removed so the beginner students can manage it. No tornado no jump outside no balance movement. he does teach Xiao hong Quan Da hong Quan and a version of tong bei quan. All are traditional forms but they are not done in the traditional manner at all there. None of the movements are executed correctly in a traditional sense. If your lucky after 3-6 years youll be able to learn staff, depending on how hard to train, how loyal you and and how often you buy him beer. The staff form is rather basic and not taught properly. Instead of teaching staff basics he just starts showing you the form. Everyone there i saw learning the form did every part of it wrong. Most could not even hold the staff correctly.

Thats basically it for what he teaches there. If you want to you can pay for the seminars he holds every so often. usually over $100 for learning a short form. They recently had a weekend seminar on long island that ran about $300 and they got to learn the same basics as in class part of the yi jin jing some tai chi and 1/3 of xiao hong quan from what i heard.

[onesp1ng]

you said: "if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for." well, from what i have read about him, it sure seems as though he thinks of himself as a "Chinese traditional teacher."

so, what are you learning now? traditional gongfu or wushu? what does yan ming teach anyhow?

well, this controversy continues to revolve around yan ming, and from a spectators point of view, it's kind of easy to see why. i mean, basically, if you take a look at your last post and everything you asked/ answered for yourself, (which are all noble pursuits, in my opinion) then applied it to yan ming himself or the majority of his students, in that you ask them to be honest in doing the same, what would you have? honesty has to trickle down, if you catch my drift...

of course, i could be completely off base here. in fact, these are just my observations after years of reading through different positions regarding yan ming. i just fear that even if a student had answered these questions for themselves respectfully, they would still be hard pressed in answering their questions about yan ming....unless they wore blinders, and this confusion would only lead to further questioning....and so on...until you have people like iron cross and mortal who are completely disillusioned with what they know of him. because these guys, after years of studying under yan ming (sometimes 4,5, or 6 years), seem to come away with very similar sediments. an honest question, then, would be, why? do they all misunderstand the insights yanming hopes to pass on, or is it something else? what do you think? does it even matter?

-------

as for the:

Intellectual Chinese people are also not conceded and won't talk about themselves in such high regard.

i would have to disagree. it depends. often it's just the way they relay the message that's different.

and:

Buddha, Lao Tze and Confucist were all HUMBLE.

you broke bread with them before? please, do tell....:-)

[Hippo Foo]

Mmmm, I have to agree... Actually Yan Ming takes a more western approach to Buddhism philosophy and traditions than China and the East does. So you have to be aware that a lot of things Yan Ming does is not what they would do in the Chinese tradition. Actually in many ways Yan Ming has dismissed the Chinese way of thinking in his interviews and articles and wants to take a more Western viewpoint when looking at Buddhism. Hence why Yan Ming has very very lose rules (if there are any), in drinking, marriage, materialism, etc. I can tell you right off the bat as a Chinese person, it is VERY SHAMEFUL for any master or actually anyone to ask for money in the way Yan Ming does (by punishment, or just his adoration for "Mr Benjamin"). Its very low class and greedy. Intellectual Chinese people are also not conceded and won't talk about themselves in such high regard. Buddha, Lao Tze and Confucist were all HUMBLE. So if you are looking for a Chinese traditional teacher, Yan Ming isn't really the one you would be looking for.

So in all of this, the important thing is to 1. Know what you want 2. Know what you are getting. Now thats kind of a trick question because 1. You may not know what you want because you don't have any experience on what is out there 2. You dont know what you are getting because the information is falsified or just not getting enough information. This is why its important to keep an open mind AND see what else is out there. Be honest with yourself also. Just cause Yan Ming's program is one certain way means thats your way. I found that out really late. I really wanted to learn what Jet Li did (wushu). I've been told thats shallow but I'll be honest with myself thats what I wanted to learn and do. I didn't even really know what the difference between Shaolin and wushu was. I thought it was the same. I WAS COMPLETEY WRONG until I really started learning Wushu. That being said... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF...... If you like Qi Gong, try to find a good Qi Gong teacher. If you like Yoga find a good Yoga teacher.

[Iron Cross]

Man Im not telling you what to do. I dont care if you take up ballet break dancing. Or make up your own martial arts from scratch. I dont even care if you practice martial arts anymore period. You need to listen to yourself above all others FIRST and not the rambling of an insane chinese peasant that plays at being a monk.

For starters your interest in sitting meditation and yoga is contradictory to what yan ming teaches. if you ask him about sitting meditation he will tell you its a waste of time. Also, you keep talking about the western mindset and the western philosophical outlook on life and how its so not in tune with all this shaolin zen stuff. Well, hate to break it to you but THIS IS THE WEST. Your in NYC it doesnt get anymore western than that.

My telling you that you shouldnt train there is about as much me telling you what to do with your life as it is telling a crack head not to smoke crack. I'm not telling you what to do with your life I'm just telling you not to smoke crack. Big difference.

Im actually rather curious what changed between last spring and now. Did you break up with your girlfriend? lose your job? lose some friends? have money issues? lose someone close to you? were you depressed in someway?

I ask because i saw the exact same thing happen to someone i knew there before this. He quit over VERY good reasons. He learned that yan ming tried to sleep with a female student there so he became disillusioned. WEll, it turns out a few months later he was back there. His situation was a bit different though because he was a seriously troubled individual that seemed to be incapable of forming lasting relationships and that place was really all he had going for him in his life. I felt really bad for him and wanted to help him but there was nothing more I could do.

FInally, if you find some of what i say confrontational or offensive then I say grow up. Life is not Disney bullshit. get used to it.

[jackwolf]

To Hippo Foo and Iron Cross..............

Thanks for the feedback guys. I especially appreciate Hippo Foo's remarks as they are more balanced. So to Hippo Foo I must respond by saying that yes I am a bit defensive in my posting last week not because of training at the USAST but because I changed my mind from my previous posting of last Spring. In the Western tradition especially philosophically it is expected that a change of mind or view regarding a subject or practice should be explained in a defensive tone as in the art of "apologetics" in philosophical discussion. Actually I think Shaolin Gong Fu is good for me right now and I enjoy it and feel good about it. I also practice sitting vipassana meditation which is more of an Indian Buddhist tradition. I would eventually like to study some form of Qi Gong soon and maybe some yoga again. And remember that thinking is as a process not always the best way to know something, direct apprehension is.
As for Iron Cross, you are too offensive in your remarks and it is not appreciated. If you do not know how to express a differing view without offending the person you differ from then maybe it is better to say nothing at all. What I actually found funny is that you advise me to avoid letting others tell me what to do in my life or how to live and then you attempt to do the very same thing a sentence later! See ya later I'm eatin a potato, after awhile crocdile and all that jazzy spazzy stuff.