Thoughts on war

[Lipster]

Missed a bit of this...

Just returned from Israel.

With all the **** going on, that country is still the most incredible place...

Walking around Jerusalem, the pig lard idea seems a little impractical - it will be interesting to see how/if they implement it.

Anyway Doc, your theory on the pig avoidance due to health is a common misconception. It's avoided purely for kosher reasons, no more no less. Which is a spiritual matter - nothing to do with ones diet.

As for those Muslims that think the US shouldn't be there but think Saddam should have gone, perhaps they could explain who else has done the job so far. If the US hadn't stepped in, how long would it have been till Saddam went. Can't have things both ways.

As for the looting, it's somewhat inevitable and it will blow over. Tyrannical regimes take a little longer to fizzle out.

Anyway, where did you pop up from Davey boy...you married yet?

And Dogchow, check your PM's for goodness sake..

[dave]

for sure i totally agree with your post lipster - still not got all that crap sorted yet bud
Hope you had a good time in Israel though.

Like i was trying crappily to explain, if there was more research done on the contemporary Middle East (even just talking to everyday people), the US would realise people like Chalabi and others who are on the governing council are just power hungry and dont represent the general populace at all. But then again, that may be the point... Some are also sponsored by the Shia regime that Iran is desperately trying to get out of the grips from. Just things like that that make it interesting - especially the fact that many of those guys, Kurd, Shia and whatever have their own militias and such running around too.

The same again for the whole Northern Alliance stuff too.

kinda all scary if u ask me

dave

[doc]

Anyway Doc, your theory on the pig avoidance due to health is a common misconception. It's avoided purely for kosher reasons, no more no less. Which is a spiritual matter - nothing to do with ones diet.

Dave, I think you misunderstood me. I was looking at this from purely a historical perspective. Here's my comment:

The same can be said for the pork issue, an issue whick is also prevalent in Judaism. They were smart back then, no doubt figuring out fairly early that pork, if not cooked well enough, can cause intestinal diseases.

I was theorizing that these kosher rules evolved not out of any act of God, but out of the ancient Jew's observation that the eating of pork can lead to disease, and therefore, eventually became "part of the religion".

Just an idea. That there were practical reasons for the evolution of our beliefs in our religions. An idea that would not only to be hard to prove, but also hard to disprove. Any thoughts?

[dave]

wow this isnt gonna turn in to either a muslim+jew vs. USA thread or a muslim vs. jew vs. USA thread is it? Im up for a tag team but cant quite handle the royal rumble yet!

dave

[doc]

Probably not.

No doubt it will end up being a muslim and jew vs doc thread.

Doc's back baby. Bring it on.



PS: No thoughts on mjy historical perspective of the origins of pork usage in the Jewish (and Muslim) faith?

[Lipster]

Hmm, you seem to be sticking with a single example though.


Firstly Doc, the laws and obligations of maintaining ones health are independent from the laws of kosher. One is understood to be for the benefit of ones health, the other to benefit ones spiritual 'health'. To illustrate, the Talmud extensively lists products - animal, vegetable and mineral - and habits that are harmful to the body. Yet these are prohibited specifically for said reason.

For example, by kosher standards, the Jew may not eat meat and milk together. Non Jews may eat meat and milk; they are not bound by the laws of kosher. We are also not allowed to eat fish and meat together, however this is because it is believed to be extremely unhealthy. And concerning the latter, non Jews are also disallowed from eating it - I mean they are not prohibited because it is not their law, but the same rule applies - it is damaging either way. If the pig was forbidden for health reasons, it would be forbidden to the gentile as well. It is not.

I’m not sure if you’re intentionally focusing on the pig – it’s not the only unkosher animal out there; most animals and fish are unkosher - would your theory then apply to the vast amount of animal and fish life in existence?

The qualifiers of what is and isn't kosher seem to be too narrow and seem to lack any parallels to fit into your theory, Doc. Any animal that chews the cud and has split hooves is kosher, any that doesn’t, isn’t. That doesn’t really seem to reflect on your theory. If what you're saying was correct, it would seem that animals that don’t qualify as kosher – in these two seemingly irrelevant ways - are in some way intrinsically unhealthy? That would seem like a pretty big statement. Yes, it might so happen that one of our unkosher animals such as the pig might also have been somewhat of a health risk, but you can’t just apply this idea to the pig alone – it’s only a single example of a multitude of unkosher animals. You’d then have to find some sort of risk attached to every other non kosher animal out there.

In a nutshell, while the pig may also be potentially unhealthy, it is prohibited because it simply qualifies as unkosher, just as the cow is permitted because it simply qualifies as kosher. That's all there is to classifying what may or may not be eaten. Everything that is forbidden due to health risks is understood to be forbidden for that reason alone, and is not confused with the illogical rationale behind the priciples that form the laws of kosher.

[dave]

the things you do for world peace Doc

I think the main thing to me is as Lipster said - the historical perspective may indeed be correct - even if you go back to the time of Ahtenkun (sp?) who was an egyptian Pharoh that espoused a form of monotheism pork was not allowed then (if i remember right), so it seems plausible. that was at least a few hundred years before Moses if i remember correctly? (If anyone else knows please correct me - got a hazy programmed out memory here )

But the thing is, for both of us (cant speak for lipster but me anyway) its a matter of faith now, so the reason doesnt really matter. I dont know about Lipster, but for me its like why i fast Ramadan... physical, mental and spiritual discipline and to bring my connection and spirituality up a level. To learn to control my physical body and desires so i can get in touch with the internal. For sure there may be a practical benefit in it - but thats not the main reason. Also in Islam even if the disease idea was a reason, we are allowed to eat pork if neccessity calls for it or by accident. To me its more learning how to control myself, and a way of quieting my ego and desires - alcohol and suchlike is all part of that too. You cant separate the prohibition of pork from the other physical and moral directives found in the Quran (and the jewish scriptures i am sure). They make a whole that develops you as a person.

My thoughts anyway

dave

[doc]

Go back some more. Why did the whole concept of Kosher come about?

Might not it be because the Jews discovered that the risks of eating pork were just too high? Or whomever first started disavowing the ingestion of pork?

It's me against the world.... Yet again.

[dogchow108]

wow, i finally got a job so ive been away for a while now. ill check my PM's hehe, sorry about that.


anyway, lipster, thanks for your recent posts. i am always trying to explain to people, actually especially jews who are afraid of their image, that kosher laws are a religious thing NOT a health thing. my cousin came to visit us last summer, and we are a very secular house. she has been raised to eat kosher, but she is afraid that we
ll laugh at her if she said thats why she wont eat milk and meat. to cover for her insecurity she gave us a shpeil about how if she ate those two together, she would undoubtably get a stomach ache. two things about this:

1 i eat steak along with cups of milk, NEVER have i gotten a stomach ache from this or anything similar in behavior.

2 she has never mixed thw two food items and therefore is unknowingly making an ass out of herself; especially when two minutes after eating a steak dinner she eats a dairy dessert and when we ask her about it she says its ok for her to eat the two just not simultaneously.

i frequently get into arguements with undereducated people, who again are most often jews who are simply afraid to say "because god said so" in front of a notorious non-theist. i wouldnt laugh at someone for their beliefs but i sure as hell will call them on their bull****.


dave- i will consent that living with villains running around rampantly looting and whatnot is scarier, in some ways than living under a regime pretty much described in a book by Orwell, but still the thing is that a revolution is going on, really, and often this is how it happens. things will get better, im pretty sure..

[dogchow108]

actually, since i have three seemingly intelligent individuals from three different walks of life, i would like to know what your thoughts are on the wall that is either in planning or being built right now in Israel


wanting to know what ppl r saying about it- ive been approached, to say it nicely, and it seems to me so far as another example of people's ignorance about the situation. but really i dont know much about the wall situation, so yea...that...

[doc]

I say build it. If the Palestinians want their own land, let them have it.

They'll starve themselves into oblivion. They're just too ignorant to see otherwise. Without the largesse of Israel, they will just disappear.

Same example can be found in southern Thailand, between the radical and non-radical muslims.

And I never said that kosher laws were a health thing.

[dogchow108]

oh, doc, i didnt say you per say...im just saying a lot of people mistake it.
really, the way i see it, you cant say that there is any real scientific reasoning behind religious laws with an end health benefit, because you cant show they thought in terms of health back then the way we do today. i would really like to hear an arguement that gives good reason to think it is anything other than basically a good guess. theres some stuff that you can think of when you really observe from generation to generation that people tend to maybe get sick from, but how are you going to prove that jews stopped eating pork because of pork-born diseases, ya know?

[dave]

dont really know much about the whole wall thing, as i tend to avoid those "subjects" that get others riled up and unable to think clearly.

But i do know some palestinian people and i just hope they and everyone in the area (jewish, christian and muslim, arab and non-arab) can have a future instead of whats there now

dave

[shaolinstylee]

I have a friend who is palestinian.. It is interesting to see what she has to say about her own people sometimes. She has family there still, says most of her cousin's seem brainwashed when they get into political conversations.

[doc]

really, the way i see it, you cant say that there is any real scientific reasoning behind religious laws with an end health benefit, because you cant show they thought in terms of health back then the way we do today.

"Hey look Abraham, Izzy ate that pig last night, and now he's got the ****s. Wow, he's doubled up in pain too. Man, that dude is sick. Maybe we shouldn't eat those pigs anymore...."

Don't need scientific proof of trichinosis or whatever to think that eating certain things are bad for you. Just simple observation.

I have a friend who is palestinian.. It is interesting to see what she has to say about her own people sometimes. She has family there still, says most of her cousin's seem brainwashed when they get into political conversations.

Yes, this seems to be the typical response for an uneducated people who have difficulty formulating and expressing their own opinions. Which, as I've said before, is the root of the problem over there. They're not necessarily bad people, they're just uneducated. You sometimes see a similar thing with the Chinese, and you definitely see it with the Tibetans.