Thoughts on war

[dave]

See the thing is lipster, it really pisses me off when people dont look at Islamic history and stuff... when Muhammad moved to Medina there was a treaty drawn up which basically made the Jewish arab tribess, the Christian tribes and others there on an equal level with the Muslims. Of course that was because of an on-going civil war so they decided to make Muhammad arbitrator and also to become the leader of Medina. Its interesting because non-muslims had complete religious autonomy and could even follow their own laws. Also of course there were rules that were binding on the whole community together. As time moved on there were other problems and historically we see that some non-muslim and jewish tribes specifically sided against Muhammad with the Meccan army (and tried to cause trouble inside Medina), so they were banished from the Hejaz area and so on - but that is historically specific. Some people use this to "justify" hatred of the Jews as a whole and make it an islamic ordained practise, which i think is totally wrong and many others do too. Apart from the fact Quran makes a clear distinction between the wrong-doers and the righteous ones, it also talks about "Bani Israil" which means literally people of Israel specifically when mentioning the righteous ones. With the current problems there it seems that this kind of hatred is very easy to fall in to and call upon - which is very sad.

All of this stuff about Jiyza (the non-muslim tax) and such was developed then but was simply like a state tax. Muslims pay it with our "zakat", which is obligatory on us and it was basically the exact same thing just for non-muslims. Quite simply to keep the state running, pay for buildings and so on. There are even stories of some non-muslim tribes feeling offended at paying the "non-muslim tax" (i think they were Christian), so Umar who was the 3rd leader after Muhammad allowed them to pay the "zakat". I am not exactly sure of the difference, but do know after that rulers got a bit nasty with it and in some cases totally oppressed everyone.

Like i said in my original posts - im not wanting to argue politics and things as i dont know much about it and also dont want it to strain our friendship in any way - i am trying to see things from 2 sides at once and its pretty darn hard. All i need to do is look at this site and it makes me want to really cry: Remember these Children

dave

[Lipster]

Oh don't get me wrong Dave, I'm perfectly aware of the differences between mainstream and extremist Islam. I am not referring to mainstream Islam when I rant...it's the extremism that has to be eradicated...your clarifications are helpful...

I fault the Palestinians for their wretched political and economical state, their religion is of no concern to me. The monetary aid that has been offered and received is staggering - nearly all of which has been misappropriated by their pitiful leaders, not to mention the amount of land that has been offered previously, which was regularly turned down.

And Docs, me waitin for a response on the kosher thing...

[dave]

the problem is that hate and anger are making the more mainstream folks lose sight of that - as well as saudi funded educational materials and such. Wahabbism/Salafism is really a big blow to traditional Islam and is very difficult to fight against

dawood

[doc]

The kosher thing.

I don't believe it. OK, answer me this. IF the kosher thingie wasn't written by ancient peoples who made various observations during their lifetimes, either based upon traditions (which are based upon some sort of observation), or "hand me down" advice, then who wrote it?

God?

[Lipster]

AH HA!!

I KNEW you would say that...

That's what it boils down to...

Yet you cannot apply this simply to kosher. I assume your question refers to all aspects of Judaism or religion. Judaism maintains that every obligation is due to divine command.

And that, my heavyset friend, is what all religion hinges on. Seems kind of ludicrous, huh?

Sure you want to get into it?

[Lipster]

That is to say G-d communicated through Prophets who in turn put His words to paper. Or parchment. Or tablets or whatever. The concept is kind of similar to a fluctuating state of Nirvana.

What I was trying to say is that your objection questions the entire authenticity of the Bible or Torah or whatever. Which is perfectly legitimate. People tend to think anyone who takes its authorship literally must be a little cracked.

It's a biggie.

[dave]

theres some good info coming out in this thread - very cool

dave

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by daodejing


This whole conflict is born of rage and suffering. It is not being conducted as a holy war should because it is not a holy war. It is a desperate attempt by one group of people to make another group of people suffer as they beleive they have suffered. Therefore nothing will ease that suffering but to let go. To forgive. To love themselves and realize that they are all things, and to love oneself means to love reality. But these are not things you can teach. No, these things are lessons every man has to learn on his own. How can you cultivate peace in the region when you do not first cultivate peace in your own heart and the hearts of the regions inhabitants?

This conflict thrives on rage and suffering. It has no goals but to spread suffering. Because if I make other's suffer as I have suffered, perhaps they will understand me. This is the urge which drives the hatred. The urge to be one with each other. But when your define your life around rage and pain, there is no way to unify your community with yourself but to share with them your pain and your anger. And if you refuse to change who you are, that my friends is the only way to satisfy your urge for unity.

you are wrong, Dao. this conflict is NOT born of rage and suffering, though it does thrive on it. it is born of hatred. in a nationally technical sense, it was born of a unwillingness of one side to accept a partition that would have given it superiority over the other side, and an attempt by that side to take the whole hand when they were offered three fingers out of two. dont try to take the hatred of both sides of this conflict and cheapen it by making it sound like one side hates the other as much as the other hates it because that is simply untrue. this IS a holy war, encouraged and incited by a series of what i guess that a lot of people would call "fanatics'" very popular religious call to purge a land of one of its inhabitants- a fanatical call which was followed by masses upon masses of people with one agenda that in my supportable opinion has been the same before, during and will remain after this conflict is puppeted as "over", and that is one thing:

"Our fundamental condition for co-operating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to scientific methods inovated by Germany in the handling of it's Jews. The answer i got was: "The Jews are yours."

the source for this is a quote of the memoirs of Haj Amin Al-Husseini. this man was appointed to be the religious and spiritual leader of the Muslims in Pre-Israel "Palestine". the British appointed him in response to escalating violence against vulnerable Jewish elements in the area. The above is an example of the kind of leadership the palestinian arabs have historically had, and is a clear indication of what the leadership's intentions were. It might interest you to know that part of the Palestinians in this struggle regard this "man" as a hero while a lot of them are ashamed by him. this may be comforting for a short while until one makes the interesting discovery that this man is the hero and role model of the person calling the shots in the Palestinian authority, who has never held an election, who has brutally murdered and held to public display palestinians who collaborated with Israel, a person who'se hatred of jews runs so deep that it is hardly possible he will ever be replaced with someone worse...this man is the man calling the shots behind every action the PA, the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad in the area, and other terrorist groups take, NOT A SINGLE MAN OTHER THAN Yasser Arafat.

I hope that a lot of people read this because this is a fact very often distorted by propagandists claiming that Israel has exploited the holocaust to benefit what is characterized as a fight against the palestinians.

this is not two-sided hatred, Dao. i know that you have good intention to "inform yourself" and see things both ways but you just dont seem to understand, again, what you are talking about. you probably realize...wel, maybe...what you are saying, but you are simply undereducated in this area to an alarming degree.

the thing i used here is only one of an endless list of direct statements, often made by leaders of arab countries which clearly indeicate that the complete removal of the jews (often described as "sweeping them into the sea") was always on the agenda, yet never, ever, ever, ever was the establishment of a palestinian state even a thought until a war was lost by the arabs and they realized what a horrible, inexcusable thing they had done. the blame for the suffering inflicted uopn the Palestinians goes to NONE OTHER than the leadership which paints them as victims yet UTTERLY REFUSES to make any decisious that could even hint at calming the violence. the Palestinian Authority has ALWAYS had the peace-ball in their court but have always refused to play it. Israel, however, has always had to SUE for peace. israel has compromized so much that in one example, one of its most beloved leaders was asassinated because even a JEW thought we had given too much. to add to that i will only mention Camp David as a concept.

this is not a mental anguish-based psychological war. it is a religious war with an intent to remove every living Jew from Israel.

Now, just to get back on subject, i asked my question originally about the wall- to which you responded with a show of ignorance that is utterly frightening. the way that it stands, the palestinians have no say in who will blow themselves up, where, and when. Such actions are the direct result of the PA's leadership and they way they educate their people and other people (a good example of other people is anti-zionist propaganda in college campuses). according to military sources, just about every time a terrorist goes into Jewish territory to blow her/himself up, they cross arab-jewish borders in order to do so. building a wall, though "not fair" to the palestinians who actually are against violence, is a measure that is legitimate and must be taken as a means to avoid attacks. i would rather people look at it and say Israel is inhumane then have a higher number of attacks. as a note, it would be interesting to see if anyone even dared to charge israel at all with anything on this as far as inhumanity goes for several reasons:

i would like to see who is pointing the "human rights violations" finger

i would like to see where that debate goes when it is brought up that compared to others who have been in controll of this territory, Israel has a track record that makes its neighbours look like Hitler, and ignoring this shows a deliberate and inexcusable double standard posed on Israel and not on other countries.

i would also like to see how the wall is viewed as far as it's being a military act: the fact is, it is a defensice act yet, as we see from Dao, people easily imply it is an arrogant offensive act, completely disregarding the causes of such an undertaking.


last thing: I am very critical of some things that have been said here. especially some of the things that have been said which carry heavy weight attatched to absolutely no understanding of this situation whatsoever. Dao, you in particular appear to be guilty of this. i do not speak for myself necessarily when i say the following (the truth is, i dont really know anything near what is considered a good amount on this topic, even in regards to arguements from my side), but you really are amongst some intelligent people here on this thread. if you will notice, most of the people left discussing this thing actually base their comments on something legitimate. i am not criticizing you expressing your thoughts, but i AM criticizing your lack of willingness to say something that touches the intellect rather than the heart. no one will ever take you seriously if you do that- break the barrier with something that is actually grounded in reality and once you have people's ears then drown them in sentiment if you want...it will still be a rather ridiculous and insincere thing to do, but it wil be a start. people here understand you much better than you think, you have only yourself to pin a label of misunderstanding to. either way, if i can help it i am dont commenting on your responses because i do not feel they have place in a debate over this matter. to be honest, i even cross my own standards by debating this subject because it is so obvious where the hatred is coming from that all i really do by debating this is making the opposition look good by even qualifying as "information". i havent even mentioned schoolbus tours, military youth group organizations, bliid libels, manipulation of the body count to serve people's interests and other disgusting propaganda and tools used to brainwash people in this. i know this seems arrogant but it just gets old with the baseless accusations. i do not expect anyone reading this to have some kind of need to agree with what i say, especially since i have really long ago made up my mind about who is right and who is wrong (something denied of many involved in this subject), but i dont try to make it out like i have no bias when it is obvious everyone does.

anyway, i have a girlfriend's homework to do for now, ttyll!

[doc]

"Heavyset friend"?

Yes, I want to get into it. My previous comment stands.

[dogchow108]

dave- just for the purpose of clarity, i do think that the war is religiously motivated, i simply think that and it will be very difficult to convince me otherwise given the evidence i have gathered for myself. BUT, you are an intelligent guy and your opinion of me is respected. i am not attacking Islam as a whole in my post my problem lies with the use of any religion as a means to motivate a war. i wont really go any deeper than that for now but just so you know, i respect MOST people of the world, but very simply not those who abuse and intentionally incite people. The exploitation of religion by national leaders to drive a war is a despicable act (of which some Israelis, by the way, are not entirely excused of) which i think lies at the very heart of this issue. religion can be a powerful tool capable of unspeakable evils when in the wrong hands- i trust that this is a statement you will agree with me on. in this specific case, its just the way i see it that Islam has been interpreted and used by certain people to fuel a hatred that is beyond anything i have ever heard of.

anyway, that was for you to read. drawing on what you have said to others on this thread, i dont want a newly formed friendship to be tainted by this issue so i wrote this.
DC

[dogchow108]

the kosher thing is not exactly my strong point, but this is how i see it.

i can't accredit people who lived several thousand years ago with using scientific process anywhere resembling modern science to come to the conclusions that we have come to today regarding whats good and whats not good to eat. the concept of microbes for example, as we know it today, was completely unknown to these guys. but then- one never knows.

i do give merit to the arguement that people can observe occurences over successive generations and start to think that something's fishy about the pork. even with the meats of carnivorous animals, you can argue that they might eat something contaminated with a disease and whatnot...but then you dont know if thats what the original authors thought when they came up with these rules.

this is what i think is stupid- when someone who dosent know at all from experience what will happen to them if they disobey these kosher laws because they never disobeyed them says they wont eat it for health reasons. i think thats just cowardly. i gave the example of my cousin earlier with the meat and milk thing. i think thats rediculous. whatever the intent of the authors of the Torah, PEOPLE who are practicing Jews should obey the laws simply because of that- that they are practicinf Jews. because god said so. that's just that. religion is based on faith, NOT scientific procedure and in my opinion any application of scientific procedure into religious arguements regarding things like law or miracles or other more mystical components of the religion makes them weaker and weaker. if you want to use the bible as a historical reference- depending on what- i think thats excusable because history is les a matter of faith than is religion.


so basically, i dont think that the intentions of the authors of the laws is even debatable, because we just cant know it without a time machine. as far as what is practiced- the torah is holy to jews, and it must be obeyed as the word of god, and in my opinion, nothing else. i think that if a religious jew starts to give pseudo-sientific arguements as to why they practice, its shameful and they should just grow the balls to express what the believe.


an exception, though, is like if you dont believe in the torah for the most part but do it for your own reasons, that is fine. just be honest about it.

[dave]

dogchow: you dont have to worry about risking anything, agreeing to have differences of opinion on certain topics is a good thing

As far as using Islam to propgate hatred, racism and war, this too is what i actually believe. Notice i made a difference between saying it is a religiously motivated war and a Religious war.

Now just imagine what it feels like to come up against this kind of blockheadedness almost every single day? It really makes me upset because the whole reason i came to Islam in the first place was because of the morality i read in Quran. So to see that turned around on its head is something rather disturbing. Especially when the people that i am interested in reading/learning from are also ostracised from the so called "mainstream" muslim community. Personally i think a lot of it also has to do with the saudi oil money and them "sponsoring" a lot of books and such which explain their puritanical view of Islam. Even if muslims dont follow their sect, their influence has been around for over 30 years and is still going strong - so its rather scary.

An interesting thing is that when you try to debate with these people they are not interested in an intellectual discussion - or even going back to the sources of Islam itself. I have done this and even though a convert of less than 2 years managed to "out-gun" them because of my basic knowledge of Islamic history.

if you are interested in discussing this more i can see if a fellow convert friend wants to join and post here? He mainly trains in Okinawan karate and traditional Japanese MA but has dabbled a bit here and there too. he is much more interested in politics than me so can talk about some of that stuff.?

dave

[doc]

Why not.

Tell us more about the Saudi influence. I think that's going to be an issue i the future.

[dave]

im looking online to see if theres any good articles that explain this phenomenon and development and such... so far heres a couple of short ones for starters:

Fast Food Islam
The Destruction of Muslim History

They should be enough for starters. Here is also one from the same site about the school of thought i am kind of loosely following Progressive Islam?

dave

[dogchow108]

oh trust me i am very familiar with the saudi sponsorship of religiously motivated hatred. i mean, really, all one has to do is look at the creation of the country in the first place- a blood-sealed union between religious and political fanatics both racing for power. Wahabbiism is the very core of their education, its actually kind of sick.
but i am actually interested in hearing what you have to say about this.


in regards to hearing stupid **** every day- i dont really have to imagine it much, i get it too. myself, my brother and maybe one other person in my university is actually Israeli and there's lot and lots of arab muslims there. there is no shortage of one-sidedness where i am.

speaking of one-sidedness i found the MWU page to be little less than incitive propaganda, but the other stuff was actually pretty interesting.