Lipeng International Tournament this Saturday and Sunday!

[emre]

The current state of Shaolin Gongfu and the skill level of current monks as fighters rather than performers is something that interests me as well.

Even if some monks were able to fight well, I wonder if they'd be fighting like kickboxers, or use real Shaolin techniques. Makes you wonder when Sanda is the official sparring method of Shaolin.

Shaolin nowadays seems to be mostly external, while I believe in the past it used to be internal. Most of the old Shaolin texts I read that have been translated talk about the 6 harmonies, raising the back and dropping the chest etc. Also, if you look at Southern Shaolin styles, their internal components seem to have remained intact for the most part. White Crane, White Eyebrow and Southern Praying Mantis have a lot of internal work, including spinal movement and joint opening/closing.

Today, you see a lot of Shaolin monks proudly posing for cameras in their postures with their chest sticking out.

Shaolin must have had internal work similar to Xingyi, I wonder when that got lost, or whether it actually did get lost completely.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

here is my reason why monks pose with chest out......which one looks cooler..chest out or chest in??..wen u take a picture..dont u want to look cool??so of course u will do chest out

and what exactlly do u mean by internal?

[emre]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
and what exactlly do u mean by internal?

Internal as in using similar internal movement, power generation and qi manipulation techniques to xingyi or bagua.

This includes specific body alignments such as the sunk/relaxed chest and tucked tailbone, internal spiralling and stretching of the soft tissues, pumping/pulsing the joints, spinal movement etc.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

well i never study a pure internal art so i dont know
but i know the shifu always talking bout the joints espchially doing mabu into gung bo
and there is specific points wen to breathe in and out
all i know is they talk about it during class
but as for doing it like an interal art..or look like an internal art liek xingyi or bagua..i don tknow..because i never trained in an itnernal art before so yeah
i don tknow
not trying to prove anything so dont get my post wrong or anything
jut incase if i sound offending

[meattosser]

Well, I hear that a few monks still practice the more internal aspects of Shaolin. As far as I know, DeYang still practices these things. Does Li Peng? Well, his father was well-versed in traditional even before visiting the temple right? I'm pretty sure Li Peng knows some good traditional gongfu. Doc, perhaps you can help enlighten me on DeYang's internal skills? It also seems that Guolin has a solid foundation in the traditional stuff, and not much of the modern wushu.

[doc]

Deyang seems to be leaning away from gong fu. He's been getting more busy with the local political situation, his performance team (video to follow) and his Buddhist leanings.

As for Deshan, I personally don't know, but I was told some interesting things about him and his alleged tenure at Shaolin.

[emre]

Guolin seems to be the one that talks about the internal aspects in his articles/interviews in Kungfu magazine. He likes to quote the Shaolin manuals.

Here's what he said in one interview:

According to the Shaolin boxing manual, one's body is likened to five "bows" consisting of two arms, two legs, and the body's trunk. The body is the master of the five. When in combat, one must draw in the chest so that the shoulders are relaxed and the power stored in the posture. The power is stored released through the "bows" via the waist. The principles in a Shaolin training formula say: center your practice around the mind; there does not exist fixed rules in bodily techniques; the key is to use these accordingly. When engaged in the movements of rising and falling, advancing and retreating, moves of opposing nature, releasing or contracting power, the center of gravity must be grasped. Movements come into existence when everything is aligned. It is difficult to describe the form of the body since there are thousands of variations. Only through the integration of mind and body can one show the capability of the body.

These are all basically the same internal principles used to generate power in the internal martial arts.

[zachsan]

sounds a bit less mystical, though.

anyway, one thing i want to mention is that, for a kickboxing-type match (two fighters in an enclosed ring, gloves on, limited clinching, weight divisions, etc.), kickboxing will naturally be the style that's most effective. the same way that, in a UFC-style match, with most of the same rules except legalized groundfighting (and gloves off), styles of submission wrestling will be the most effective. so sure, if you try to limit shaolin gongfu to that type of situation, it's going to look like kickboxing.

the function of rules and rings is to put two contenders on an equal playing field, and see who comes out ahead, by virtue of skill. and honestly, for real-life situtations where you're in an enclosed space (you can only back up for a few feet and you can't run away), you're only facing one opponent, that opponent has equal skill and similar size, and there's actually some kind of utility in making him say "uncle" (keep in mind that you can't call the cops while you've got someone in a submission hold), for that very specific situation, submission fighting or boxing tactics really are going to be the best bet.

the problem is, that will probably never happen. so, the "fair-fight" strategies that you learn for sporting events don't really apply. try dancing around on the balls of your feet, feinting, parrying and jabbing with 8 guys surrounding you, and see what happens. for that matter, try getting into a ground fight with one of them, and see if the other 7 stand there and watch.

for more probable situations like this, you are going to want to run away. that's a given. so, the techniques you want are not the ones that will let you "contend on the ground", or dance around an opponent at long-range; you will want to know how to break a guy's hold, hurt him enough to buy yourself a few seconds, and run away.

the thing is, this kind of conflict, the kind that we're likely to see in the real world, can't very well be reproduced in competition, for all kinds of reasons. but we still want to have our dick-measuring contests, so we stick to these competitions and convince ourselves that the Grand Champion could survive a back-alley attack by three knife-wielding punks, when, in reality, he wouldn't stand a chance.

the best thing that we can learn from MA is to stay out of the trouble. the next-best thing we can learn from it is how to get out of trouble when we've gotten ourselves into it. what we don't want to learn is how to "stay and fight", because, if we think we know how to do that, we might just try to sometime, and then we'll be eating through a tube in the hospital.

now whether the shaolin monks understand this, or whether they are merely content to carry on their traditions whether or not they're justified, i couldn't tell you.

[mortal]

I have trained for many years with the "monks" and it is all an act. There is much more to fighting then kicking and punching hard.

Your right it is me. I represent things the way they are. I don't walk around saying I'm this enlightened person and then bang female students. I have seen that with every monk I have trained with.

If we say there great fighters and their not, they should stop us right there and correct us.
Not pose for these stupid pictures in pubu with their arms out.

After a few more years you will all see the things I am talking about and you too will be disenchanted.

Even more than that is the horrible feeling of being swindled.

Lipeng was the first monk in 5 years to show me applications. So I was excited about it. Then when I really thought about it those applications weren't even as good as what I learned in taekwon do when I was twelve.

I am not blindly bad mouthing them. I trained 3 to 5 times a week for 6 years. More than most of you could say.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by mortal
If we say there great fighters and their not, they should stop us right there and correct us.
Not pose for these stupid pictures in pubu with their arms out.

maybe you're right, but they have no motivation whatsoever to do that, and every reason to continue posing....

just look at it this way. they could be banging the male students. in the words of monty python, "always look on the bright side of life..."

[emre]

Originally posted by zachsan
sounds a bit less mystical, though.

Oh there are a lot of parts where he talks about qi, if that's what you mean.

The same terminology is used in the internal arts and if you learn what the methods regarding the 5 bows, releasing/contracting, storing power etc are and how they're practiced, again it's all about qi. Sorry to disappoint you.

[zachsan]

damn, so close.

now we just need to see about sending a few of these monks to college...

[meattosser]

Zachsan said: "...just look at it this way. they could be banging the male students. in the words of monty python, 'always look on the bright side of life...'"

Hahaha, yes, good ol' Life of Brian. Hilarious stuff man.

Mortal said: "Lipeng was the first monk in 5 years to show me applications. So I was excited about it. Then when I really thought about it those applications weren't even as good as what I learned in taekwon do when I was twelve."

Hey mortal, how long did you train with LiPeng though? If I was living in New York, I was thinking of training with him, but only if he really teaches good traditional gongfu. He wasn't teaching you anything worthwhile then?


Doc said: "Deyang seems to be leaning away from gong fu. He's been getting more busy with the local political situation, his performance team (video to follow) and his Buddhist leanings."

Dammit Doc, so Deyang doesn't practice/teach the traditional gongfu anymore? Damn, that's really sad man. As if traditional gongfu wasn't rare enough in the temple already, now DeYang, one of the few left doesn't teach it anymore either? Who's left that teaches traditional then? DeCheng? Guolin? That's it? 2 people?

As to the monks being known as fighters, well, in my opinion, they can practice Modern Wushu and pose as much as they want. BUT, if they go around calling themselves "warrior monks", they better be able to back it up. It seems that too many of them are calling themselves so-and-so-generation "warrior/fighting" monks, then it turns out all they know is Modern Wushu. If that's all they know, then they shouldn't be called warrior monks.

[mortal]

As to the monks being known as fighters, well, in my opinion, they can practice Modern Wushu and pose as much as they want. BUT, if they go around calling themselves "warrior monks", they better be able to back it up. It seems that too many of them are calling themselves so-and-so-generation "warrior/fighting" monks, then it turns out all they know is Modern Wushu. If that's all they know, then they shouldn't be called warrior monks.

Meattosser

We finally agree on something.


Steve- What happened to our connection?

[zachsan]

well, correct me if i'm wrong, they don't really call themselves warrior monks. in the states, they don't really need to advertise themselves as much more than "shaolin monks". and there's the chinese term "wuseng", but that could denote someone who practices wushu just as much as someone who practices traditional styles.

really my point is, they don't need to make any claims, and they don't need to back up any claims. all the claims are made for them... "you could never touch goulin in a real fight!"... and all the claims are backed up for them... "he's too honorable for the likes of you, but i'll show you the strength of shaolin gongfu myself!!"

all they need to do is count the cash.